for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
In order for the said scholar to resolve your problem it is required that the specific date for that solstice for 588 BC be clearly established as mentioned in VAT 4956 now that it is known that the following lunar eclipse 15 Simanu is the 15 July 588 BC -Julian calendar then the said scholar can contact Rolf Furuli for his comment on the relationship between a solstice and an eclipse in terms of Chronology.
Scholar hastening to resolve this conundrum!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
he... 15th... is 6 days after the... 9th.
The... solstice.. on the... 9th... is necessarily... within a day of 29 June.
6... days... after... 29 June... is... 5 July.
It is physically impossible for the eclipse in question to occur on 15 July.
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What a fascinating conundrum you have posited for now we have a lunar eclipse dated 15 July 588 BC and the solstice on the 9th of the 3rd month which is believed to be on 29th June 588 BC? The said scholar needs some serious scholarly assistance to resolve this matter methinks something is rotten here but the said scholar will investigate this matter further and find the source of the 'smell'.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Vintage
"According to the translation of the VAT 4956 tablet, during Year 37, Month 1 of Nebuchnezzar, King of Babylon, Saturn was in front of the Swallow. The Swallow is the region of the night sky we now call Pisces. The night sky is divided into 12 regions. Saturn passes through all of them on its 29.4 year-long orbit.
"That means that Saturn takes 2.42 years to move through each of the 12 constellations. Once Saturn moves out of Pisces, it will not return there for another 27 years. According to Babylonian astronomers, Saturn was in Pisces in Nebuchadnrzzar's 37th year which astrologists set at 568 BCE.
"Running our SkySafari Plus program and setting the time and date to Friday, April 22, 568 BC, 1:00 AM, location: Baghdad, we get an image showing the planet Saturn within the Pisces (Fish) constellation (Figure 16)."
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Furuli in his Assyrian, Babylonian And Egyptian Chronology, Vol.2, 2007 in 'Table C.2 shows the positions of Saturn according to Line 1-2 in VAT 4956 and finds against 568 BC in comparing that with the data for 588 BC but such is problematic for a number of reasons. At best the planetary is ambiguous due to a number of pertinent factors.
acholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
t hadn't seemed necessary. Like others, I had only responded to what the Watch Tower Society had actually claimed, and of course they don't mention that the date of the summer solstice in VAT 4956 immediately shows them to be wrong. But, at my own leisure, I will add mention of this additional issue just to even more thoroughly show the Watch Tower Society's position to be completely and utterly wrong.
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Strange that it is important now so you will be altering your Blog post? WT scholars have not mentioned the summer solstice no doubt because it has no significance to the matter at hand.
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Do I just? 🤣 I don't really need to do any such thing. But if I find a conveniently accessible source, I might do so if I feel like it. Irrespective, the range of possible solstice dates is quite definite. (And it's 568BCE, doofus. Not 586.)
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Only for the purposes of honesty and transparency but on scholar's request you have done accordingly.
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Once again demonstrating your ignorance. But obviously it would affect the position of the moon relative to the various constellations.
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Well then what is the computed difference or effect for it is odd that others have not noted such an impact.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
But since it is established that the summer solstice necessarily occurs around 29 June (Julian calendar) for the given period, the 9th day of the 3rd month must correspond to around that date. And it does exactly correspond for the established chronology of 568 BCE. Of considerably less importance, the eclipse 6 days later is therefore reaffirmed as falling on 5 Ju
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The appearance of the summer solstice on the 9th of the 3rd month is irrelevant to the lunar eclipse of the 15th of the third month for it is simply one of the many astronomical observations computed or observed contained in the tablet. But if you believe it is significant then it is a matter for you.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Thank you and I accept the omission of 588 BC for scholar is not too difficult and hard to please.
Now all that you have to do is explain the relevance of the date of the summer solstice of 'the 9th' on Line '16' of the tablet and the lunar eclipse of the 15th' on Line '17'.
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Maybe other commentators haven't raised it because the other problems with the Watch Tower Society's flawed analysis are generally sufficient to show them to be wrong. But I am quite clever as well, so I don't mind being first.
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How come you have not mentioned this matter in your Blog on your website? Further, you need to provide a scanned copy of such tabulations for the solstice for the years 586 and 588 BCE. The said scholar is of the opinion that changes concerning the Earth's orbital distance from the Sun has no impact on observations of the Moon either observed or computed thus such a solstice has no relevance to the subject at hand and that is why WT critics are silent on this matter- a red herring!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Wow. 🤦♂️The summer solstice is an astronomical event. Changing the date of the solstice so extremely would require a significant alteration to the earth's axial tilt and/or distance from the sun (very significantly more than the range of its elliptical orbit).
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Indeed. thus you need to provide precise information and sources for the date of the summer solstice for both 568 BC and 588 BC if you believe it is relevant.
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Even if it is argued that such a catastrophic change did occur, any such change would make it impossible for modern researchers to accurately predict the positions of any stars or planets in the Neo-Babylonian period.
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OK so let us get this matter sorted and explain how the summer solstice is relevant to the matters at hand of the proposed beginning of the New Year, Nisanu, 588 BC or is this just a red herring for none of our critics including COJ have raised this point and this too demands an explanation. Ann oO' Maly with her discussions of the sky positions in comparison between 568 and 588 BC is silent on this matter.
Let us go!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Though 'scholar' has already been thoroughly trounced, it's also worth noting that VAT 4956 identifies the summer solstice on the 9th day of the 3rd month.
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Indeed
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For 568BCE, that corresponds to 29 June (Julian calendar), which is a very good fit for the solstice in that period. (The solstice is usually 20 or 21 June on our modern calendar, but the period shifts because the Julian calendar differs by about a day for every 400 years compared to the Gregorian calendar.)
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What about 588 BC?
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But for the Watch Tower Society's nonsensical assertion about Nisan beginning in May in 588BCE, this would put the summer solstice on 9 July, which, again, is impossible.
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Really, then you must explain why? If in fact, the summer solstice has any relevance as our critics make no comment on this fact. Perhaps this is just a 'red herring'!
scholar JW
for newbies, who was carl olof jonsson?
he was a jw in sweden who was challenged by a householder in the 1960s, who pointed out to him that secular history books don’t agree with watchtower that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, but instead place the event 20 years later.
the reason the date is important is because it is the starting date for jw chronology which leads to 1914 as the end of the gentile times, and the beginning of the last days, as jws understand it.
Jeffro
Barbour was an Adventist you doofus. (I suppose you'll try to irrelevantly 'argue' that he wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist, probably not understanding that Adventism is broader than just SDAs.)
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Barbours's religious affiliations were complex moving from Methodism-Millerites and Second Adventism. best left to a competent historian. Refer to Nelson Barbour The Millenium's Forgotten Prophet, 2009, Schulz and De Vienne.
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Correct year is definitely 587BCE. Not 586BCE. And very obviously not 607BCE. I've already demonstrated that the Watch Tower Society's mangling of VAT 4956 is impossible.
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There is no correct year, for scholars to date are undecided whether it is 586 or 587 BC. The date 607 BC is the only correct date.
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VAT 4956 identifies a year that had an intercalary month prior to Nisan, and no intercalary month at the end of that year. 568BCE fits both criteria. 588BCE fails both. Not to mention the more specific observations of the stars and planets that definitely disprove the JW dogma, which is why they pretend the names for the planets are ambiguous.
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VAT 4956 refers to a lunar eclipse which is datable to our modern calendar and the mention of an additional month for that year thus these two simple lines of evidence validate 588 BC for Neb's 37th year in combination with the other lunar and planetary observations.
scholar JW
