Duran
hey already don't have it, that's why Scholar won't/can't answer this:
Scholar always responds but will not respond to nonsense. Can you provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BCE?
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
KalebOutWest
So much has already been provided. You can provide God from heaven to tell you that it's not true and you would spit in God's face and call God a liar. Why?
- I have made the challenge to all critics of 607 BCE as the date for the Fall of Jerusalem sofar you have not been able to provide ONE line of evidence that would disprove 607 BCE
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
aqwsed12345
Claim 1.
This argument is logically flawed. Scholarly disagreement over whether the Babylonian domination began precisely in 609 or 605 BCE does not indicate ignorance or uncertainty about the destruction date of Jerusalem itself. All credible historical and archaeological evidence conclusively establishes 586/587 BCE as the destruction date of Jerusalem, with extensive documentation through Babylonian Chronicles, astronomical tablets (VAT 4956), archaeological excavation layers, and corroborative Persian, Egyptian, and Greek records.
The JW assertion that disagreement on whether the Babylonian domination started in 609 or 605 BCE invalidates scholarly chronology entirely is untenable. Such minor disagreement (within a 3–4 year range) in no way supports a 607 BCE destruction date, a claim completely lacking historical, archaeological, and astronomical support. The Watchtower’s date (607 BCE) is not "biblical certainty"; it is a doctrinal invention contradicted by every credible historical record.
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Disagree. The dates 605 and 609 BCE are used by scholars to begin the 70 years which is very relevant for any scheme of Chronology which covers this late period of the Judean Monarchy prior to its end. Such confusion stands in contrast to that of 607 BCE which is a definite date for the 70 years.
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Claim 2.
Jeremiah 25:11 explicitly includes "these nations" in the 70-year prophecy, which indicates regional Babylonian supremacy, not just Judah’s exile. The JW argument artificially isolates Judah, ignoring explicit biblical references to the wider region.
Jeremiah 29:10 indeed foretells a return after 70 years are completed, precisely upon Babylon’s defeat (539 BCE), not two years later (537 BCE). Cyrus’s decree, historically confirmed by the Cyrus Cylinder, occurred shortly after Babylon's fall in 538 BCE, fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy. The JW insistence on a 537 BCE fulfillment ignores historical data, arbitrarily imposing an unnecessary two-year gap between Babylon’s fall and the end of the 70 years.
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Both texts in Jeremiah are descriptive of the events prior to the 70 years during and after the 70 years and pertain to Judah and its inhabitants in Jerusalem by means and under Babylon's supremacy over the region.
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Claim 3.
This argument confuses Babylon’s immediate fall and political judgment (539 BCE) with later physical desolation of the city, which took centuries. Jeremiah 25:12 states explicitly that punishment begins after the 70 years end, referring clearly to Babylon's political fall. Babylon ceased being sovereign precisely in 539 BCE, fulfilling the immediate judgment. Physical destruction occurred progressively much later under Persian and Greek rule, not linked explicitly to the 70-year prophecy’s termination date.
The JW argument mistakenly conflates Babylon’s immediate political fall with its later physical desolation, misinterpreting biblical prophecy.
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This is simply your interpretation. Jeremiah clearly states after the 70 years were fulfilled Babylon would receive its judgement by means of destruction.and commenced after the jews returned in 537 BCE.
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Claim 4.
Josephus indirectly supports 607 by his description and timing of the 70 years.
Archaeology finds evidence that Judah was desolate during the Neo-Babylonian period and supports 586 rather than 587 so you have two problems here.
Astronomy by means of recent published research on VAT 4956 validates 607 BE
Claim 5
Babylonian administrative and historical texts demonstrate uninterrupted governmental continuity during Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. No ancient source indicates Nebuchadnezzar lost the throne, nor do historical records support a chronological gap. Daniel 4 describes temporary mental incapacity, not removal from kingship. JW claims of a seven-year chronological gap are historically baseless inventions intended solely to justify their faulty chronology
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If your statement is correct then where are Neb's missing years of his reign? Daniel describes in quite specific terms what happened to Neb so need to whitewash that piece of history.
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Claim 5
his claim is blatantly incorrect. Carl Olof Jonsson, in "The Gentile Times Reconsidered," thoroughly addresses Judah’s exile, servitude, and land desolation within his analysis of the 70 years. He explicitly demonstrates the prophecy concerns Babylonian dominance, incorporating Judah’s exile. JW arguments misrepresent COJ’s comprehensive scholarly research.
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Show me where in his GTR that he discusses the Exile which was the 70 years.
Claim 7
Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BCE, immediately freeing captives in 538 BCE (Cyrus Cylinder). Counting back exactly 70 years correctly places the start of Babylonian dominance around 609 BCE, not 607 BCE. The JW claim arbitrarily inserts two extra years without historical support, relying entirely on doctrinal preference rather than documented events. This is a deliberate miscalculation to align with JW prophetic speculations about 1914.
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False. The Jews returned from the Exile in 537 BCE and if you count back 70 years you get 607 BCE which ended the Exile commensurate with the Fall of Jerusalem
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Claim 8
Jeremiah 52 explicitly lists multiple deportations: Nebuchadnezzar’s 7th year (597 BCE), 18th year (586 BCE), and 23rd year (582 BCE). Multiple deportations after 607 BCE destroy JW arguments, showing the land was not completely desolated in 607 BCE. Rather, these deportations confirm a prolonged Babylonian campaign consistent only with the scholarly 586/587 BCE destruction date. The JW argument inadvertently refutes itself by citing this evidence.
- True. multiple deportations characteristic of the Exile during which were conducted within neb's reign. These facts show the reality of the Exile of 70 years.
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Claim 9
The date 609 BCE is explicitly derived from historically attested events (Assyrian defeat at Harran, Egyptian actions, and Nabopolassar’s campaigns) confirmed in multiple Babylonian chronicles (ABC3, ABC4, ABC5). These dates are well-attested, not arbitrary insertions. JW’s claim of “interpolation” is entirely unfounded historically and represents a misunderstanding of ancient Near Eastern chronological research.
-- The arbitrary date of 609 is simply opinion
Claim 10
The JW’s entire Gentile Times calculation depends wholly upon the false 607 BCE destruction date. Since 607 BCE is conclusively disproven historically, archaeologically, and astronomically, the JW 1914 doctrine also collapses. Astronomical and historical records categorically contradict 607 BCE, demonstrating the JW prophetic calculation as incorrect and baseless.
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The date of 607 along with our teaching of the Gentile Times has withstood the test of time and scholarship and has been thoroughly vindicated by modern history and biblical scholarship.
Conclusion
You can summarize all that you like but here is a challenge for you and your cronies. Please provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem. Remember not 17 as per COJ in his GTR but simply ONE. Got it?
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
Jeffro
This aptly demonstrates the faulty argument from tradition for asserting 586 BCE rather than the correct 587 BCE. It’s readily apparent that 5 years before the 23rd year (582 BCE) is 587 BCE. It’s only very slightly more complicated for the 11 years after the 7th year because that deportation was in 597 BCE, but it was before Nisan and also pinpoints 587 BCE when considered properly.
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It would appear that aqwsed 12345 does not agree with you pushing the barrow on 587 BCE
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
aqwsed12345
1.It is misleading to argue a lack of consensus to justify 607 BCE. Scholars differ between 609 BCE (final Assyrian defeat at Harran) and 605 BCE (Babylonian victory at Carchemish) as the start of Babylon's 70-year period of supremacy precisely because both dates have historical significance. However, no credible scholars propose 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction. All reputable secular historians agree on 586/587 BCE. The uncertainty over 609 vs. 605 BCE does not support 607 BCE, as the JW argument incorrectly assumes.
The scholarly dispute concerns when Babylon's dominance began, not when Jerusalem was destroyed, which is securely dated to 586/587 BCE by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence.
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1. Thus, because scholars cannot agree as to whether the 70 years began in either 606 or 609 BCE makes their chronology is worthless as it is based on uncertainty. If you cannot agree, then you simply do not know, whereas WT scholars, based on the biblical evidence, know for certain the date for the commencement of the 70 years. What credible scholars choose to believe is not evidence and there is simply no evidence for either 586 or 587 BCE for the date of Jerusalem's Fall or whether 605 or 608 BCE began the 70 years.
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2. The context clearly indicates a period of regional Babylonian dominance, not exclusively a 70-year desolation or exile of Judah. Notice the explicit mention of "these nations" (plural), which includes Judah but is not limited to it. Thus, Jeremiah's 70 years encompass Babylon’s political and military dominance, aligning historically from approximately 609 BCE (or 605 BCE) to Babylon’s fall in 539 BCE.
Jeremiah 29:10 supports this: the 70 years conclude when Babylon's rule ends, allowing Judah’s return—not after the return itself (537 BCE), but upon Babylon’s fall (539 BCE). Ezra and Daniel also understood the 70 years in terms of Babylon's dominance ending with its fall, not two years afterward.
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2. Clearly Jer. 25:11 and its context shows the dominance of Babylon but this verse and its content is specific to Judah alone for vs. states "concerning all the people of Judah and vs. 2 "concerning all the people of Judah and all of the inhabitants of Jerusalem".
Jer. 29:10 clearly shows that it was after the 70 years at Babylon were completed then and only then would the Jews return from Exile and that did not happen with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.
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3. Historically, Babylon was punished exactly at its fall in 539 BCE by Cyrus the Great, as confirmed by numerous historical records. There is no delay or "two-year gap" in Scripture or history. Babylon lost sovereignty precisely at its conquest in 539 BCE, directly fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy. The JW assertion that Babylon’s punishment must begin in 537 BCE is entirely artificial, unsupported historically and biblically.
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3. Babylon fell in 539 BCE, and this was a punishment and a judgment against Babylon as prophesied, but a further destruction and not just a fall was foretold in Jer. 25:1,2 which amounted to total destruction which did not happen in 539 BCE.After that Babvlon lost its staus as a world power now subject to the Medo-Persian Empire with a new king of Babylon.
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4.Refutation:
- Josephus: Josephus explicitly confirms Jerusalem’s destruction occurred in Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th regnal year, corresponding historically to 586/587 BCE. Josephus never supports 607 BCE. JW misuse of Josephus selectively distorts his clear statements (e.g., Antiquities X.7.1).
- Archaeology: Extensive archaeological excavations in Jerusalem universally confirm the destruction layers dating precisely to 586/587 BCE. No archaeological evidence supports 607 BCE.
- Astronomy: Astronomical diary VAT 4956 precisely confirms Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year as 568/567 BCE, proving the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 586/587 BCE (his 18th year). The JW attempts to redate VAT 4956 to 588 BCE are incorrect and discredited by independent astronomers...
- Josephus supports JW interpretation of the 70 years in terms of its nature and timing.
- Archaeology supports the fact of the desolation of Judah which indirectly supports JW interpretation of the 70 years as a period of desolation of the land.
- Astronomy through the VAT 4956 is now shown to be supportive of 607 BCE/
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5. Nebuchadnezzar's seven-year illness in Daniel 4 is nowhere described as creating a gap in Babylonian history. Babylonian administrative texts from this period show continuous governance, clearly disproving any interruption in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The JW insertion of a seven-year gap is a completely unsubstantiated and artificial attempt to justify their chronological misalignment.
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5. It was part of history so it is a vital piece of chronology which is based on history. Poor or inadequate history leads to poor or inaccurate chronology. The bigger issue is the Babylonian Gap of 20 years between secular/profane chronology and Bible Chronology.Do you believe that Nneb was absent from the throne for seven years?
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6. Carl Olof Jonsson extensively discusses the 70-year period, analyzing all relevant biblical texts (Jeremiah 25, 29, Daniel 9, Ezra 1, 2 Chronicles 36). He convincingly demonstrates that the 70 years were Babylon’s dominance, not Judah’s specific exile. The JW assertions grossly misrepresent Jonsson’s thorough and careful scholarship.
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6. Precisely and that is COJ's problem because he does not see through the lens that the 70 years was not just about Babylon's dominance but of Exile so he was rather short-sighted respecting the 70 years unlike the celebrated WT scholars.
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7. The biblical and historical record explicitly refutes this claim. Cyrus issued his decree to release the Jews in 538 BCE, historically attested by the Cyrus Cylinder. Most scholars agree the actual return occurred by 537 BCE. Counting back exactly 70 years aligns with Babylon’s dominance (609/605–539 BCE), not 607 BCE. The JW timeline artificially compresses historical events and misdates key events, such as Nebuchadnezzar's reign, contrary to overwhelming external evidence.
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7. The said scholar is happy that you recognize that the Jews returned home in 537 BCE which of course ended the 70 years as fortold by Jeremiah and confirmed by Ezra. Thus if we count back 70 years we arrive at 607 BCE with Babylon's dominance- beginning of the Exile to baylon and leaving a desolate land all these circumstances are composite of the 7o years.
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8. This inadvertently disproves the JWs' own claim. Jeremiah 52 clearly refers to deportations after the initial 597 BCE exile. If Jerusalem had been destroyed and made completely desolate in 607 BCE, no further deportations could have occurred years later. This passage instead confirms the multiple-stage exile and contradicts a singular 607 BCE destruction.
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8. Nonsense. Jeremiah lists three deportations during Neb's reign, which altogether confirm the historical reality of the 70 years as a period of Babylon's dominance in the Levant - exile of the Jews by means of deportations of its citizenry as exiles, thus leaving a land desolate and depopulated, which affirm the Exile of 70 years.
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9. This claim shows misunderstanding or misrepresentation. The Babylonian Chronicles (especially ABC3 and ABC4) clearly document Nabopolassar’s decisive victory over Assyria at Harran (609 BCE), firmly establishing this date historically. No interpolation is involved; rather, clear Babylonian historical records support this date explicitly.
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9. Ancient historical records do not contain modern calendrical dates, as these are inserted by the translator or scholar working on the documents.
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10. The JW "Gentile Times" prophecy depends entirely on 607 BCE, which has been comprehensively disproven historically, astronomically, archaeologically, and biblically. Even accepting symbolic "prophetic years," the foundational 607 BCE date is factually invalid. Without 607 BCE, the entire 1914 prophetic calculation collapses.
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10. False. The Gentile Times is based on 607 BCE which is well proved from the Bible, secular history and ancient astronomy to be the only authentic for the Fall of Jerusalem leading to the well-established modern history of 1914.
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The JW argument for a 607 BCE date for Jerusalem’s destruction fails at every level of scrutiny:
- It misreads Jeremiah’s prophecy.
- It contradicts explicit historical and astronomical evidence.
- It distorts scholarly research and misrepresents reputable historians.
- It artificially inserts chronological gaps without evidence.
- It selectively quotes and misrepresents historical sources like Josephus and Babylonian Chronicles.
The scholarly consensus—backed by a convergence of biblical, historical, archaeological, and astronomical evidence—is clear: Jerusalem fell in 586/587 BCE, and Babylonian supremacy (the 70 years) lasted from approximately 609 BCE to 539 BCE
The date of 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem is firmly established:
Based on the 70 years prophecy of Jeremiah, history of Ezra, confirmed by Daniel as a witness to those events.
The 70 years was a definite historical period with a definite beginning and end anchored in history
The 70 years was period of Exile - a period of servitude to Babylon - a period of a devasted and depopulated land of Judah
The 70 years as described was confirmed by the Jewish historian Josephus
The date 607 BCE and its 70 years is well anchored in the chronology of the Divided Monarchy
The date 607 BCE is based on the universal acceptance of the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
Jeffro
The claim that a “prophetic year” is explicitly described in the Bible is partially supported by some verses in Revelation, which use a 360-day year. However, Ezekiel 4:5 and Daniel 12:11 do not directly support this concept. The claim is overstated in suggesting that all the cited verses consistently define a prophetic year.
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Nonsense. Beginning wth the 'Year-Day' principle based on Numbers 15:34 the Bible explicitly uses various units of time such as days, weeks and years as part of prophecy - calendrical units of time as part of prophetic language. Such units of time are linked with 'times' used in both the book of Daniel in the OT and the book of Revelation. Such correspondence between these units make up the useful term in 'prophetci year' in terms of biblical hermeneutics.
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
Jeffro
I haven’t closely considered COJ’s work. Which is kind of the point. I read some of his book online in 2015. I’m not aware that he makes any specific argument of 587 BCE over 586 BCE, and whether he has is unrelated to the logical sequence of premises I have laid out
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COJ makes only an indirect reference to the 586/587 controversy through a footnote.
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But because you are a dishonest coward, you will continue to ignore the content and just prattle on with the same old empty drivel that you’ve done for years.
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Why not try to update the scholarship but the scholar's 'old empty drivel' over many years has always gets your attention.
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
KalebOutWest
Is there a Bible verse that defines “prophetic years”? No. There is not. There is no such thing.
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A prophetic year is described in the Bible and I refer you to its usage in Rev. 11: 2,3: 12:6, 14; and Ezek.4: 5 Dan.12:11; FOR its equivalent 'times'.
Refer to Biblical Calenders, J.Van Goudoever, 1959, p.75.
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
Duran
Well, there we have it, you are in check, because you claim that happen in 607 (Neb's 18th year) to 537. But here we read in Nebs 23rd year (602) the land was not 'desolated-empty of its inhabitants'.
[Jeremiah 52:29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem.]
[Jeremiah 52:30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.]
So, I guess you need to change your version of the 70 years to 602-532, not 607-537.
Not at all.
Jeremiah is simply stating the fact that Neb took a number of Jews into exile on three different occasions during Neb's reign. Read into this what you will.
scholar JW
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171
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan init-1 p. 493 communication - "when the circumcision issue was resolved by the governing body in jerusalem......".
it-1 p. 881 galatians, letter to the - "by reason of a revelation, paul, with barnabas and titus, went to jerusalem regarding the circumcision issue; he learned nothing new from james, peter, and john, but they recognized that he had been empowered for an apostleship to the nations.
" (galatians 2:1-10).
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scholar
KalebOutWest
You are presenting nonsense. The calculation of the Gentile Times of 2520 years is not presented in calendrical terms but use the biblical prophetic year of 360 days or 12 months of 30 days. A prophetic year is also called a 'time' as shown in Rev.11: 2,3; 12:6, 14 which shows that each 'tim'e reckoned a 360 days.
Hence, no paradox. Leave the paradox to the philosopher.
scholar JW