Posts by scholar

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 331

Well you asked me name of a reputable scholar who supports 607 BCE and I fulfilled your request.

The vast amount of data does indeed prove a twenty gap between secular and biblical chronology. Do the maths!

The biblical chronology a spromoted by celebrated WT scholars does indeed provide a corrective to the traditional chronology because of the intervention of the seventy years which is ignored by traditional chronology.

Most modern scholars may reject our biblical chronology and the date for the Fall of Jerusalem but such scholars also reject the Bible as the inspired Word of God and would accept man's wisdom. Further, they cannot agree on any one specific date for the Fall of Jerusalem. So there!

Oh yes they do. Both Jeremiah 25:11 and 29:10 explicitly state or infer the state of exile or an address to the exileees.

Judah was not in servitude to Babylon until the reign of Jehoiakim who was made a vassal king by Nebuchadnezzer and this was not in 609 BCE.

There is nothing in the Bible record that proves Josiah's vassalage to Babylon for in last stage of his reign he was in conflict with Egypt not Babylon. You need to get the history right as poor history means poor chronology.

Too easy

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Mary

Post 9260

You need to relax a bit and lie down. Celebrated WT scholars do no write reference works on Greek for this has been nicely done by many scholars over many decades. Those scholars simply and humbly refer to what is published in the literature. Thus in regards to the meaning of parousia we see that it means 'presence' pure and simple. Certainly other secondary meanings are given such as 'coming', 'arrival' and some authorities reverse the order of these words. So we must be honest and recognize the facts of the matter. Leolaia has written an opinion that seeks to cloud over this simple lexical fact by trying to substitute 'presence' for 'coming'. These words are not similar but have very different meanings in English so we must be faithful to what Matthew wrote on that Olivet Discourse.

I did not raise this issue but simply expressed my opinion of Leolaia's nonsense, simply raising the errors and the assumptions made. Further, she failed to alert the reader that many of the topics mentioned in her article are very controversial and have many different views such as the Lord's Day. In short what she wrote showed an agenda and this ain't scholarship. If she wants to make a contribution to scholarship on the true meaning of Parousia then she should submit a Journal Article for publishing.

The matter of the invisibility of presence is not determined by its meaning but by the context of its use and in Matthew 24 such an interpretation is most appropriate for at least one simple basic fact that in verse 3 the disciples had to ask for a sign of the parousia.

Yes, Jesus warned about those who would deny the reality of his presenve and of the coming of the Son of Man and so he exhorted his disciples to keep on the watch. Further, such false prophets would certainly include thos e who seek to deny the reality of his presence by focussing on his coming and not heeding our Lord's exhortations.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and I have no interest in converting you. I simply post here to defend our sacred teachings.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 330

You need to read all of the Josephus' references to the seventy years of which there are several for these show quite clearly that the seventy years in the opinion of Josephus ran from the Fall until the Return. Further, this period was of exile, servitude and desolation of the land, city and temple. These collective references nicely support the understanding of the seventy years according to the Bible and published by the 'celebrated WT scholars.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 329

I cannot a reputable scholar in support of 607 BCE except in the case of Dr Rolf Furuli who is a Sebior Lecture in Semitic Studies, University of Oslo, Norway.

The interpretationof 607 BCE as proposed by 'celebrated 'WT scholars does not require the rejection of vast amounts of data but rather assigning far greater importance and priority to the Bible which provides sufficient data in order to construct a reliable and accurate biblical chronology. The rest of secular data is of great interest to those scholars and when given due consideration provides strongsupport for the accuracy of 607 BCE inasmuch as it provides evidence of a mere 'twenty year' gap. The biblical account of the 'seventy years serves as a corrective to such secular data thus one arrives at 607 BCE. So whatever methodology one uses, 607 BCE ie embraced by both the biblical and secuklar data.

The interpretation that the seventy years from 609 -539 BCE is impossible because the seventy years had not ended with the Fall of Babylon and also had not begun in 609 BCE because Judah was not exiled to Babylon at that time and the land was not devastated at that time. So, this opinion fails on numerous grounds so you must try and try again.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 328

Not so! Judah was in fact in servitude to Babylon long before the seventy years for the last Kings of Judah were in vassal kings first to Egypt and then to Babylon and the prophecy At Jeremiah 27:6-7 was written at the beginning of Jehoiakim's reign which was 628 BCE. During his eleven year reign Jehoiakim became a vassal king to Nebuchadnezzer, King of Babylon thus as prophesied by Jeremiah, the Judean kings would be in servitude to Babylon under the Babylonian dynasty.There is nothing mentioned in this chapter about the seventy years but Jeremiah had also foretold as described in 25:11-12 that Judah would serve Babylon for seventy years in conjunction with the land being desolated. This period of servitude-desolation and exile wwas brought during the 18th On Nebuchadnezzer's reign and the 11 th of the last king of Judah, Zedekiah withthe destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post

Yes, I made a typo mistake which I noticed after I had hit the post button.

So now you are a linguist in claiming that in Jeremiah 25:11, 12 that the adverbial 'seventy years' modifies only the phrase 'the servitude' and does not modify the phrase' the devastation'. This is simply your opinion and I disagree with this. You cite no scholarly or exegetical support for your opinion so I suggest you demonstrate why your claim is so. I would argue that all of what is said in verse 11 was included in the seventy years which was the land being devastated and servitude to Babylon. That is what the text plainly reads.

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

AddaGirl

It is quite simple really. As a scholar I full support and endorse the Bible chronology of the Society as only reliable and accurate chronology that is faithful to God's Word. The biblical seventy years is one definite historic period described by Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Ezra. These seventy years is a period of servitude-exile-desolation running from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE. It is as simple as that.

You are incorrect in saying that there was no king of Babylon at the time of the final edict of Babylon for Cyrus who conquered Babylon was acknowledged as 'King of Babylon and this role was maintained for a period according to secular history. Certainly, Jeremiah 27:6-7 simply describes that nations would serve the Babylonian dynasty and so it was that Judah for seventy years served not only Nebucchadnezzer but his son and grandson exactly as Jeremiah prophesied but this dynasty ended with the demise of Nabonidus and Belshazzar with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. This dynasty was replaced by a new King of Babylon with the conquerors of the Medes and Persians who were now the new rulers of Babylon during and after 539 BCE.

Thus there is no conflict between Jeremiah 25;12 and Jeremiah 27:6-7.

Your claim that 609 BCE marked the beginning of Babylon's sovereign rule is false as according to Bible chronology it is 625 BCE.

The Society has published much on chronology and so it is simply a matter reading such material to fully understand matters and that includes the seventy years.

scholar JW

221

Watchtower Comments THE GENERATION CHANGE Featuring LEOLAIA

by V in

scholar

Lex Talionis

Let the battle begin...Bring it on.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

bennyk

Post 326

You are very sadly mistaken because you are paying close attention to what the text actually says. Jeremiah 25:11,12 indicates that Judah and the nations would be in servitude to Babylon for a period of seventy years and that the land of Judah would also be devastated for seventy years. as in verse 11. Verse 12 indicates that after the seventy years were fulfilled or ended then Babylon, its king and the land of Chaldea would bceome a devaststed place. None of these things happened at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE. This prophecy began to go into fulfillment after the exile of Jews had returned home in 537 BCE thus ending that seventy years of servitude, exile and desolation, after some centuries Babylon and it territory gradually declined reaching a state of total devastation.

scholar JW

73

The 70 years of devastation--as revealed by the Bible

by AddaGirl in

watchtower teachings say this period is from 607 bce to 537 bce.

most of the documentation relating to the seventy years indicates that period to be 609 bce to 539 bce, the rule of the babylonian empire.

i wrote to headquarters, because as a bible study student i knew i could ask questions about certain doctrines that those baptized cannot without consequence and some of the information i received from them was very helpful especially when it was used to verify the chronology of the kings of judah and israel through the bible.. the bible says there are actually (2) 70-year periods.. the first being one of servitude to the babylonians of both israel & judah from 609 bce to 539 bce.

scholar

AddaGirl

Post 5

I have downloaded your treatise on chronology and will print it out for a more detailed appraisal later meanwhile I offer the following points that may be of assistance to you. As a suggestion why do you not post the Society's replies to your question as I am sure that the Society would have given you a complete and satisfactory answer as has always been their normal practice.

For starters, there is only one definite fixed historic period of 'seventy years based upon the prophecy of Jeremiah and later by Zechariah, observed by Daniel and later referrred to by Ezra. Josephus also speaks of a sole seventy year period which included a fifty year period of obscurity running from the Fall of Jerusalem and the Return from Exile. Celebrated WT scholars using a simple Bible chronology proven by biblical and secular history places these events from 607 BCE until 537 BCE. This gives a fixed period of seventy years.

There being multiple 'seventy years' is impossible for this only confuses the subjects and using other dates such as 605 BCE or 609 BCE are also impossible for the beginning of the period is also impossible. Further, the ending of the period in 539 BCE is also sadly impossible.

In short, the only way that all of the data in scripture can be harmonized is to view the seventy years as one definite period of desolation of the land, exile in Babylon and in servitude to Babylon so the seventy years is characterized by three elements: DESOLATION-SERVITUDE-EXILE which is exactly how Josephus viewed the matter.

I have spent many decades studying this subject and have read numerous commentaries and scholarly journals on the subject so this well accord's with the view of the FDS.

scholar JW