scholar

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Posts by scholar

• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
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  scholar

  Rocketman123

  hen your a corrupt intellectually dishonest bible scholar, just like the so called WTS/JWS bible scholars

  --

  Thank you for the compliment.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Rocketman123

  One thing to note about JWS and 607 BCE is that if you are going to be an accepted member and identified in good standing you have to agree and support 607 BCE., which includes agreeing with 1914.
  

  Isn't that right Scholar ?

  ---

  Absolutely!!!!

  scholar JW
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  See https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/216056/vat-4956-comparison-lunar-three-time-intervals-years-568-7-bce-588-7-bce for AnnOMaly's excellent thread analysing the astronomical observations in VAT 4956 against the claims made in the November 2011 issue of The Watchtower.

  ---

  Now debunked by Furuli using the best or the more professional astro-program available SkyX

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  Haha... so, based on the information purportedly from Furuli, I was basically right on both counts when I said:

  ---

  Aren't you a smart little boy.

  ---

  (Furuli allegedly says it was he who 'assisted', but in the capacity as the primary 'researcher' for his fudged 'observations'.)

  -- Furuli was consulted and played a major part in the research for the WT article using others to corroborate his research but his research could well be the basis for the article.

  ---

  But as has already been pointed out, it is quite obvious why Watch Tower (and Furuli) need to discount the observations of the planets

  --

  The WT article did not discuss the planetary data for the reasons given in the article but Furuli most certainly does in his research proving that these were simply retro calculations therefore not reliable.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
  
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  joey jojo

  Here are 2 lines of VAT4956:

  Line 2: Saturn was in front of the Swallow.

  Line 9: Saturn was in front of the Swallow.
  

  If I am reading the tablet right, the time between the observance of Saturn in the first line and the second is about 28 days. So , for weeks, Saturn was roughly in front, or to the east, of the Swallow constellation

  This is all the information that anyone that knows anything about astronomy needs. A difference in half a degree here or there is totally inconsequential. In fact, any one of these 2 observations are enough to pinpoint the year.

  Saturn takes 29 years to complete its orbit around the Sun and reappear in the same place. The difference between 568 and 588, as argued is only 20 years.

  If the location of Saturn in regard to the Swallow matches for 567/8,then it will not match for 588- it won't even be close. 588 is incorrect, everyone, except the WT knows it.

  Actually, I'm pretty sure they know it too.

  --

  A little dose of plain common sense that the lunar observations would be more use than that of planetary observations for the fact of its proximity to the Earth and ease of observations over the centuries.

  The simple fact is that the planetary observations are open to interpretation and as the WT article notes that in the case of VAT 4956 which contained 15 planetary observations and 13 sets of lunar observations. The latter are are observations considered superior to the former and show a precise match for 588 BCE. Other celestial bodies relating to the moon can also be identified and their positions can be dated with a good measure of certainty.

  Thus as the planetary observations are open to some interpretation and although not considered in the WT article were certainly examined by Furuli who found that these are only approximately correct and may have been retro calculations based on the historical assumption that Neb's 37 th year was 568 BCE

  scholar JW
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Regarding Ann O'Maly's paper 'Fact-checking 'VAT4956.com' I sent a copy to Rolf Furuli receiving his reply by email this morning for his comment and it is just as I always suspected that the differences between experts regarding this tablet amounts to Methodology and the use of different tools or resources. Furuli offers the following comment on O' Maly's paper:

  ASTRO PROGRAMS: Furuli, WT author for the Watchtower, Nov.1, 2011 and O' Maly use different astro-programs. Furuli's use of The SkyX is the preferred choice by professional astronomers in the USA. O'Maly uses the Cartes du Ciel 4.2.1 . Furuli comments on this that "For positions in the sixth century BCE, there can be a difference of a half degree, or in some instances even more between different astro-programs".

  THE CALCULATED POSITIONS: O'Maly used a hypothesis based on a ellipitical coordinate system as explained on page 2 in her paper. Contrariwise, Furuli used no a system but rather what an observer/ Babylonian scribes saw when looking at the sky on a certain date or putting it simply bt direct observation whereupon he chose to use the Sky x program.

  Furuli notes that he had assisted the brother in the Writing Department who wrote the two articles on Chronology with ongoing discussions and the exchanging of drafts for two years prior to the publishing of the two articles. During that period Furuli asked him to find two Witnesses with astronomical knowledge who could test his astro calculations. Furuli met one of the two researchers 15 years ago who had given a lecture at an international astronomical congress in Oslo, Norway. Furuli comments that the findings of these two matched exactly his findings with the only difference of a few minutes in some places.

  Furuli further comments that he does not endorse the hypothesis that the Babylonian scribes used the elliptic system as does o' Maly and others but he believes that the calculations of the scribes were not theoretical but based on historical data. The same celestial phenomena would occur at the same intervals, for example, the 18 year cycle of the Moon, such periodic phenomena were the basis for their calculations.

  Furuli also advises readers that in his 2nd edn of his Assyrian, Babylonian and Egyptian Chronology all the coordinates of each of these positions namely the 13 lunar sets is given so one could compare O'Maly's positions with his by means of the SkyX program using the coordinates in each case and see which position is correct.

  So we have different experts who have different opinions based on their own hypotheses and different methodologies.

  scholar JW
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  It is not the case that a significant majority of scholars prefer 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever. Even mother Watch Tower disagrees with you.

  The Watchtower, 1 October 2011, page 31:

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  Most scholars prefer 586 not 587 BCe. Keep up reading the WT for you may be converted to 607 BCE

  ---

  Most translations of Jeremiah 29:10 properly refer to 70 years for Babylon. Even in the rendering of the few translations that incorrectly allude to 70 years as a period at Babylon, the 70 years doesn't include the journey home, and allows the 70 years to end before attention is given to their return. But the JW interpretation is a distorted mess because they say the 70 years (which supposedly started more than a decade after most of the Jews were already in exile) ended only once they'd arrived in Judea. Worse still, in the JW interpretation, most of the Jews are in exile for over 80 years, some are in exile for less than 70 years and others are in exile for about 65 years.

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  Traditional renderings favour 'at Babylon' rather than 'for Babylon' and the NWT is in very good company in this respect.. The 70 years as explained in our publications is simple and clear as the Return was in 537 BCE, the Jewish Exile lasted 70 years so it must have begun in 607 BCE with the Fall. You talk about a 'distorted mess' then you should look at the journal articles on the subject and you will see a mess indeed just like your pretty chart.

  scholar JW
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  • hahaha... poor 'scholar' had to resort to throwing a tantrum. Maybe you should write to Watch Tower to tell them they're wrong that most secular historians say 587 BCE. 🤣

    No need for most scholars prefer 586 BCE.

    
    

    
    

    
    

    Link Dislike Like
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  It is not the case that most scholars support 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever.

  Says you who is not a scholar and unaware of the controversy within scholarship over this dilemma so it is a big problem not of my making but noting that it does exist.

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  It is not the case that most scholars support 586, but any who do are wrong. No "poblem" for me whatsoever.

  --

  I care little for your opinion as you never contribute anything anew except some pretty charts.

  scholar JW
  
  
• 
  150

  Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  anybody know something about vat 4956?.

  nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

  any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  scholar

  Jeffro

  No. It doesn't. Not even slightly. Since it was “only when the 70 years have been fulfilled [that] judgement against Babylon [would] proceed”, then the conquest of Babylon in 539 BCE necessarily follows the end of the 70 years. Which was then followed by the Jews returning to Judea.

  --

  Yes, it does for Jeremiah does not discuss the judgement against Babylon until 25:12 through to vs 14 and Daniel does not discuss Babylon at all in ch.9 but refers to the judgement not on Babylon but on Jerusalem with its 70 years having to be fulfilled after the Fall of Babylon.

  ---
  586 is the wrong year. Hardly his best work. A notable individual advancing the wrong year only confused the issue, but the correct year is quite definitely 587 BCE.

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  According to you but most scholars prefer 586 rather than 587 so you have a BIG POBLEM here

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  You haven't even attempted a valid response with regard to what the passage actually says. Your interpretation requires that the Jews arrive in Judea, the 70 years end, and then attention is given to their return. It is a complete distortion of the passage. I realise it's impossible for you to provide a valid response because your entire position is wrong. But you could at least try.

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  No. Plain common sense reads the verse as a prophecy that with the fulfilment of the 70 years at their Return would be the fulfilment of that original promise of restoration. There can be no other suitable explanation of this verse. My suggestion to you is to consult other translations more particular how this verse is rendered in the NWT-Reference which is more to the point.

  scholar JW
  .