Boogerman
Gentile Times
Birth of God's Kingdom
Expulsion of Satan the Devil and his demons from Heaven to the Earth
Outbreak of the Great War
scholar JW
scholar
JoinedPosts by scholar
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Vanderhoven
Sorry, as I see it, none of the so-called evidence you present lifts the secondary fulfilment theory above speculation or indicates that Daniel 4 is about 1914.
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The evidence that I
set out is based not on eisegesis but sound exegesis so I cannot understand why you are not convinced by the facts that I listed.
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Are you suggesting that Jesus really knew the timing of his parousia based on Daniel 4 but just did not know how to express it because the year 1914 is "tabulated in a very different calendrical system"?---
The fact that Jesus described the Gentile Times or the appointed times of the nations is an immediate connection to Daniel 4 and He could express it as to a year in our modern calendar for that would have been meaningless.
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Let me suggest that your inability to find a NonJW scholar that sees a dual fulfillment to Daniel 4 .... is because it is simply not supported by the text. It's just another example of WTS eisegesis
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No, it is because WT scholars are too smart.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
ozziepost
Perhaps we need that “clarified
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No problem. The simple fact is that 1914 vCE saw a confluence of events that arose and soon developed consequentially in 1914 and immediately thereafter:
Beginnings of the Great War in 1914
October, 1914 saw the birth of God's Kingdom
Consequentially, Satan cast out of Heaven to the Earth evidenced by the beginning of the Sign of the Lord's presence which was clearly identified by the Great War in its full flourish
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
NonCoinCollector
esus would have known that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed by Babylon in 607 BCE. Having witnessed the events as an angel, he would have known the exact day.
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Nonsense. Jesus would have known the exact year that Jerusalem fell in King Zedekiah's 11th year and King Nebuchadnezzer's 18th year which in our modern calendar not used in Jesus' day is properly calculated as 607 BCE
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Vanderhoven
I see no evidence let alone proof that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment. I see only speculation. If it is not stated, it is merely assumed.
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The evidence is as summarized:
1. The fact that in Daniel 4 there several references about God's Kingdom
2. The fact that the book of Daniel has 'God's Kingdom as its main theme
3. The fact that the Aramaic word iddan and iddanim meaning 'times' and 'times' has both a lieral and figurative meaning according to Hebrew Lexicons
4. The fact that Jesus in Luke 21:24 made a direct reference to 'times' in connection with the city of Jerusalem which is consistently iswed in the Bible as a antitype representing again God' s Kingdom
5. The fact that the Old Greek version of Daniel 4 makes a direct refeence to the Fall of the Judean Monarchy as faound in the commentary on Daniel in the Heremeneia commentary series by Danielic scholar John Collins.
6. The fact that Daniel 4 could not have just had a literal meaning of 'seven years' because such supporters do not believe that this was an historical event and is not found in NB Chronology that Nebuchadnezzer was vacant from the throne for those seven years.
7. The fact that schlars observe the relevance of Lukan Eschatology in both Luke and Acts
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Can you quote a nonJW "scholar" who supports this WTS claim?
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No
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Why do you think Jesus couldn't predict 1914 based on Daniel 4?
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The year 191`4 is tabulated in a very different calendrical system to that used in Jesus day but a clue to His thinking in relation to His Kingdom is given in the book of Revelation wherein He makes refence to the 'Lord's Day' which we believe to have begun in 1914 CE
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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scholar
Vanderhoven
The first is that Daniel 4 has a secondary fulfillment.
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Absolutely that Daniel 4 of the tree dream had a double fulfilment as proved by the use of the word 'times' and that the theme of 'God's Kingdom is emphasized in that same chapter and the entire book of Daniel as well as the OG version of Dan.4.
scholar JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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ozziepost
I’m thinking we should be seeing some familiar faces joining our thread pretty soon. 😉
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Are you referring to the mighty scholar?
scholar JW
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How To Talk About Interpretation With Jehovah's Witnesses.
by Vanderhoven7 inthis from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.
before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).
i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.
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Vanderhoven 7
Thanks for your encouragement Blondie. From there in, "Good News... " I go to the the invisible eschatological foundations for the Watchtower authority... and ask them how they know that the apostle Peter was raised in the spring of 1918, Christendom's churches were rejected in the fall of 1918 and Jesus chose Bible Student leaders in Brooklyn New York, who knew nothing about their appointment, to be his Faithful Slave in 1919?
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In my examination of this subject, I have developed the expression for such significant, prophetic events of the years 1914, 1918 and 1919 as an eschatological triennium. Such a crucial period of modern history and that of the only true Christian Church describes the relevance and impact of the end of the Gentile Times, the birth of God's Kingdom and the heavenly resurrection of the Saints or Holy Ones.
Enjoy!!
scholar JW
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17
How To Talk About Interpretation With Jehovah's Witnesses.
by Vanderhoven7 inthis from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.
before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).
i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.
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Vanderhoven 7
The subject of Interpretation especially the methodology employed by Jehovah's Witnesses - the eschatological church is rather challenging and of particular interest to me. Interpretation lies properly in the field of Hermeneutics and the two basic methods are as you have noted are exegesis and eisegesis. Exegesis of a particular text or passage is usually found in scholarly journals, theses or dissertations and not in WT publications and other Bible commentaries. Eisegesis is not common and usually not favoured by scholars but is practised to a great extent in WT publications and I have no issue with this fact for various books of the Bible can only be properly understood by means of eisegesis alone. Examples of such Bible books which demand eisegesis would be for the OT, the Prophetic literature such as Daniel, Ezekiel etc and for the NT, Revelation.
WT publications provide guidelines for its readers in how to read and understand the Bible and these principles are similar to that of other teachers in Christendom such as Charles Swingoll in his Searching the Scriptures,2009 wherein the basic steps are:
1. Observing the Text
2. Interpreting the Text
3. Correlating the Text
4. Applying the Text
The Bible is a book of literature that consists of several different genres thus different methods or styles of interpretation are required and in the case of the Prophetic genre, eisegesis is the only 'tool in the shed' so to speak and as the eschatological church foretold in Revelation, especially in the case of the 'trumpet blasts' this tool in addition to the revelation by Holy Spirit' succeeds in unlocking the sacred mysteries then proclaimed to peoples worldwide.
scholar JW
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134
How far do we get away from 1914
by PimoElder inhow far do we get away from 1914 before they have a new light and admit it was all wrong?.
they cling to the old theory of the 77 week prophecy from the wrong date that jerusalem was destroyed .
with the overlapping generations nonsense still we are getting too far away from 1914. what will they say if we get to the 2030s and they still cling to 1914?.
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scholar
After all this time, don’t you think we should meet and acknowledge we can be friends ?
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Absolutely but unfortunately I have moved to Brisbane some 9 years ago and I miss my sojourn into Moore Theological Library where I enjoyed doing research and of course as an alumni of the University of Sydney I miss the proximity to that venerable institute of higher learning. My late wife use to own a terrace house in Eveleigh Street, Redfern during the Ghetto period so it was only a short walk to those two institutions. Anyway if we cannot meet personally then we can either meet on zoom or by telephone.
scholar JW