aqwsed12345
Par.1. Rebuttal
Agreed
Par. 2 Rebuttal
The argument for a 607 BCE as opposed to the date 586 or 587 BCE is based on the Biblical Record through the Jeremiah' prophecy, experience of the 70 years through Daniel the prophet and confirmed by Ezra the historian and Josephus the historian. Both Daniel and Jeremiah lived during the 70 years of Exile, so their collective testimony as eyewitnesses was confirmed by later historians such as Ezra and Josephus.
Such collective testimony by people who lived at that time or lived much closer to the Exile presents testimony that is far superior to any so-called evidence presented centuries later. Biblical and historical evidence confirms the fact of a 70-year Exile, whereas later archaeological and astronomical evidence is subject to interpretation and/or differing opinions within scholarship.
Starting Point - Rebuttal
There is no question that the 70 years is summed up in one word -Exile which as common to exany exile of a peoples especially in ancient times consited of three major elements: Servitude to Babylon- Exile at or for Babylon - Desolation of the land of Judah. All of which are detailed and written up by Jeemiah by prophecy-confirmed historically by Ezra, Daniel and Josephus.
Scholars who champion 605 or 609 BCE for the beginning of the 70 years have the major problem that the events associated with these two years make no mention of the 70 years and do not provide a time or date stamp in relation to the 70 years. Thus, what we have are two 'fuzzy' candidates for the beginning of the 70 years. WT Chronology as a 'strong cable' of Bible Chronology time and date stamps the beginning and end of the 70 years, which is unmatched by the advocates of 605 and 609 BCE.
All that such advocates have is the interpretation that the 70 years was solely a period of Babylonian domination, which is only partially correct as it ignores the fact of the exile and the fact that Judah was desolated for 70 years.
609 BCE for the Fall of Assyria is not date stamped. The beginning of Babylonian supremacy is open to interpretation for others would date such an event in Neb at the Battle of Carchemish in the 4th year of Jehoiakim but Neb had not come up against Jerusalem -hence, no deportation -no exile. The 70 years could not have begun with that event as Nneb had not invaded Judah at that time.
The terminus ad quem is not 539 BC for the fall of Babylon, for the jews were still captive in Babylon as exiles even after 539 BCE, as confirmed by Daniel 9: 1-2, who had discerned that the 70 years had not expired at the time of Darius' first year. Further, Ezra in 2 Chron.36: 22-23 contextually links the 70 years with the Cyrus' first year and discusses the 70 years during the reign of Zedekiah's 11 year and Neb's 19 year. Such history belies the claim that the 70 years of exile occurred much earlier in Neb's reign. IMPOSSIBLE
In summary, there remains confusion amongst scholars as to when the 70 years began and what it actually represented. Numerous scholars present different opinions as to when the 70 years began and its end.
Jer. 25 and Scope of Servitude
Jer. 25: 9-12 was primarily addressed to Judah, as shown by a reading of that pericope and the previous verses from vs. 1-8. However, surrounding nations were also caught up in the Babylonian conquest, and these too were made to serve Babylon during the exilic period of 70 years., There is no historical data for each of those nations as to the precise timing of their servitude to Babylon, and even Jeremiah does not list those affected nations. Later in the chapter, Jeremiah does list all of the nations that would later receive judgement beginning with Babylon - Jer. 25: 12-26.
Jer. 20:10 can either be rendered either 'at Babylon' or 'for Babylon'. WT critics argue that 'for Babylon' is the correct translation and the said scholar is of the view that either translation is permissible and is happy with both, and the scholar likes to be happy.
In short, Jeremiah's prophecy in relation to the 70 years of Exile is focussed not on Babylon but Judah as shown by a plain reading of the text. By focussing on Babylon, WT critics such as COJ stand to quote COJ 'is to turn the matter upside down"..The proper and only approach is that the 70 years of Jewish Exile under the babylonian yoke or domination.
Thus, the claim that the 70 years began in either 605 0r 609 BCE and ended in 539 BCE is impossible, bogus and false- complete and utter nonsense and noyt supported by Josephus who presents the subject exactly as do JW's with their strong cable of Chronology beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 537 BCE- the JEWISH EXILE.
Fulfilment of the 70 years
Par. 1
Agreed
Par. 2. Rebuttal
The scenario is corrected to Tishri 1 607 BCE- Tishri 1 537 BCE. Jeremiah ties the 70 years not to Babylonish domination but to the Jewish Exile. Ezra explicitly states that the 70 years as Jeremiah's prophecy that the land lay desolate ain order to pay off its sabbaths for 70 years and confirmed by Josephus.The Chronicler links the beginning of the 70 years during the Zedekiah;s reign with the destruction of the city and the Temple under neb in 607 BCE. -2 Chron 36:11-21.
The claim that '70 in this context is a round number' is nonsense and simply an interpretation disproved by all of the 70 year references and Josephus. Scholar loves Josephus!!
Dan.9:1-2 This proves that the 70 years had not ended in 539 BCE with the fall of Babylon as Daniel discerned that according to Jeremiah the 70 years was still running even up to the 1st year of Ddarius in c. 538 BCE. Such of the fact would pave the way of Cyrus' decree in his 1st year to relaes the captive jews in 537 BCE Babylon under the Nneb's dynasty had indeed fallen in 539 BCE but a new king of Babylon was now installed as the Medo-persian empire which was no able to offialyy end the Exile of 70 years and return the jewish captives home.
WT interpretation has reversed no such thing. The 70 years of exile begin with Jeremiah's prophecy and end with Ezra's historical account but also continued in later writings by Josephus. In short, Daniel, Ezra and Josephus explain Jeremiah's prophecy. You gotta luv Josephus111
Interestingly, Daniel, in his 70 weeks of years prophecy of the coming Messiah, piggybacks this prophecy on the 70 years of exile in Dan 9..
Josephus in five references to the 70 years, presents the subject as we understand the subject and not as WT critics. His focus in his texts centers on the temple in each of these, and in Ap 1.21 he makes reference to the temple -"laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years". in the previous section 1.19 he states, "our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until Cyrus, king of Persia". One translation of Josephus with marginal footnotes states" and it was left in a state of obscurity for fifty years".
This means that during the interval of 70 years the temple was obscured for fifty years in a state of slow decay requiring by the time of the Jews returned home found the temple nonexistent, having then to lay its foundations as it had been originally burnt at the time of the fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE.
Further, in Whiston's Dissertation v he refers to the 'conflagration of the temple beginning and ending under Cyus after 70 years. This confirms the fact that the 70 years of exile also included or was a period of conflagration of the Temple, nothing to do with Babylon or Babylonian domination.
Josephus' many references to the 70 years cannot be ignored, and although his chronology can be challenged, he nevertheless deals with the 70 years exactly as do the bible writers such as Jeremiah, Daniel and Ezra.
Josephus is a credible historian who was also the source for Berossus, the Babylonian historian, so if you are going to dismiss Josephus, then to be consistent, you may as well dismiss Berossus and all of the other Babylonian scribes who compiled their history and chronology. You should not cherry-pick . Naughty fellow!!!
Archaeology Dating 586 or 587 BCE?
Rebuttal
Scholars cannot agree as to whether it was 586 or 687 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem despite the preponderance of so-called scholarly evidence. It is a basket case of confusion, and also so it is with the reigns of the Divided Monarchy. WT scholars have both matters well and truly sorted.
It is a difference of one year, but it is much more than a one-year difference for it comes down to METHODOLOGY. Methodology is key in constructing any scheme of Chronology, and there is a major difference between WT methodology and that of secular Chronology. One method works the other fails. In the case of determining the precise date for the Fall of Jerusalem, WT scholars have proved it to be 607 BCE. Secular scholars do not know whether it was 586 or 587 BCE? You need to get your house in order !!
You claim that there is extensive evidence for 586/587 BCE and that it is solid, but it is not rock hard but fluid, very flexible and fuzzy. Your Chronology lacks any foundation for it is not based on the inspired Word of God as its primary base, nor does it account for the Jewish Exile of 70 years, which, along with the established date of 539 BCE for the Fall of Babylon it is determined that 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem. It is as the author Charles Dickens wrote of A Tale of Two Cities.
Your pretend scheme of Chronology is falsified by the biblical 70 years of Jewish exile.
Babylonian Chronicles simply affirm biblical history in part, which can easily be used to support 607 BCE.
Astronomical dating has been shown to support 607 BCE by means of scholarly research.
Babylonian king lists are of scholarly interest but do not include Neb's missing seven years, so of little value but as with the former Chronicles can be construed to fit 607 BCE
Synchronisms that are mentioned in the biblical record are important as these serve as a date or time stamp.
The fact is that at this stage of knowledge, the most important artifact that supports 607 BCE is that of the biblical 70 years of Exile and that of Josephus, and that is as it should be.
Astronomical Evidence -VAT 4956
The strongest line of evidence is not astronomy, for it is subject to interpretation, human observation and calculation and manipulation as in the case of Ptolemy's Canon according to recent scholarship. The bible should be the sole authority when it comes to biblical chronology and its history.
VAT 4956, as with any piece of evidence, is subject to criticism, and recent scholarship has shown that the dating of Neb's 37 the year can be dated to 588 and not 568 BCE
Rof Furuli was the first scholar to conduct a comparison of the astronomical data for the proposed years of 568 or 588 BCE, and his analysis of both the sets of the lunar and planetary data support 588 rather than 568 BCE. Furuli found that in the case of the 13 sets of lunar positions were a perfect fit for 588 rather than 568 BCE and the planetary positions were retro-fitted to fit 568 BCE.
WT scholars carried out their own independent research and found that in the case of the lunar sets were again a perfect match for 588 rather than 568 BCE
What this means is that in the case of VAT 4956 the jury is still out as to whether it corroborates either 586 or 588 BCE so only time will tell so at this stage it cannot be considered to solid evidence against 607 BCE
Myth of Neb's missing years.
This is no myth but piece of history referred to by Daniel and Josephus and according to the OG translation of Daniel was an experience publicised in a literary form throughout the Babylonian Empire in many languages for the peoples.
You present a king list for the neo-Babylonian Era none of which contains historical facts that disprove 607 BCE
It is nonsense to say that such records are airtight when there are at least 7 missing years in Neb s reign, and with the historical placement of the Jewish exile of 70 years shows a 20-year difference between the two chronologies.
COJ and the Exile
This is a misnomer for COJ; there was no Exile of 70 years despite its clear presentation in the biblical record and Josephus.Its omission can hardly be called a strawman when it clearly is discussed in the Bible as a major theme-Exile and Return have now featured as titles in a recent book. and discussed topically in scholarly reference works on Jewish and Biblical history.
You can read all of COJ's GTR in its four editions and you will find no discussion of a Jewish Exile and such omission falsifies his thesis as a piece of worthless rubbish.
WT Chronology a thing of beauty.
There are many beautiful things in this world, one of which is God's inspired Word -the Holy Bible, authored by the Sovereign, Jehovah God. It contains sacred history and prophecy, which, when combined, create a chronology- likened to a strong cable. Such chronology has elegance, symmetry and simplicity. In comparisons, we see a secular chronology that has no fixed dates for key events based not on the bible but wholly on secular sources- a secular or profane system of Chronology only fit for scrap.
No single line of evidence - converging proofs against 607 BCE
If this is truly the case then only one is necessary and despite my repeated request, you supply nothing.
You set out six lines of evidence but all of which have been and remain contestable.tour 7th argument is nonsense for we table the bible as evidence against any artifact or pagan records.
Conclusion
You present 6 findings but none of these disproves 607 BCE for each one of these has been discussed and shown to have validated 607 BCE in terms of biblical context, history, archaeology, astronomy, ancient witnesses such as Josephus and internal consistency.
It has been well demonstrated that WT Chronology is of God, is divine as all of God s inspired Word anchored in history and prophecy. The date 607 BCE is solidly based on all our knowledge, enabling the humble seeker to understand history and prophecy and to discern that God's Kingdom was born in that momentous year 1914CE
scholar JW
