Posts by Rainbow

38

If we are further away from perfection, why are we more moral?

by stuckinarut2 in

as we know, witnesses teach that adam and eve were perfect and then committed the first act of sin and rebellion.. they in turn were cursed,and we all declined as their offspring.

humans supposedly lived shorter and shorter lives, and became more imperfect and sinful.. the further away in time humans go then, they should be getting worse.

so why is it then that as a society, humans have actually improved in so many ways?.

Rainbow_Troll

From the utilitarian viewpoint of nineteenth century philosopher Jeremy Bentham, we are doing better. Today in the Western World more people have more pleasure and less pain and live longer with a greater sense of wellbeing than ever before.

I'm not so sure. While there is certainly much to be said for modern medicine, even this benefit has been compensated by an increase in disease. We spend more time working than our medieval counterparts did. We are certainly more free than them, but much of the choices we are given are rather trivial. The only way I could have possibly been happy back then would have been as a monk or priest, but I believe if I were I would have been much happier than I am now.

I used to look towards the future for hope; now I look back to the past for my inspiration. I will always be an incorrigible Star Trek fan; but don't see anything resembling Gene Roddenberry's dream looming in our future. What I see is much closer to Brave New World and it's unfolding before my eyes.

38

If we are further away from perfection, why are we more moral?

by stuckinarut2 in

as we know, witnesses teach that adam and eve were perfect and then committed the first act of sin and rebellion.. they in turn were cursed,and we all declined as their offspring.

humans supposedly lived shorter and shorter lives, and became more imperfect and sinful.. the further away in time humans go then, they should be getting worse.

so why is it then that as a society, humans have actually improved in so many ways?.

Rainbow_Troll

Judeo / Christian ethics has had an enormous impact on the world.

More the Judeo than the Christian, I fear...

If Jesus had been given more attention than Moses and Paul, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

.

Rainbow_Troll

Unless they were truly anointed, just touching the emblems could cause instant death.

38

Even if it's not the truth, it's still the best way to live

by Simon in

how many times did you hear that gem?

it often went along with "the truth is a protection" which is their way of saying "living a moral life is good for you ... and you can't do that without us".. but think about what people are really saying.

i think the real message is "i know it's not the truth, but i chose to follow it anyway".. it seems like a pre-emptive argument because they know they can't defend it as "the truth" so instead they switch to defending it as a lifestyle.. of course any kind of lifestyle that has a decent moral ingredient to it, respect for law and order, discipline etc... probably increases people's chances of doing better in life, but they don't have a monopoly on it.. so just remember, next time you hear someone saying "even if it's not the truth" what they are really admitting is that they already know it isn't..

Rainbow_Troll

Ah, Pascal's wager... The problem I've always had with this is that, at least in some scenerios, choosing the wrong religion gets you sent to Hell. Simply 'feeling good' is no compensation if your religion is not only false, but damnable.

According to the internet (which is never wrong), there are 33,000 sects of Christianity in the present. Granted, most of them are not exclusivist when it comes to salvation, so I'll be really generous here and cut that number down to one percent, or 330. This leaves us with the following premises:

1) There are 330 varieties of Christianity out there, all claiming to be the one true church.

2) No more than one of them can be correct in this claim; but all of them could very easily be wrong.

3) If you decide to play and join one of these competing sects, you have, roughly, a 99.7% of being damned anyways and probably being tortured in Hell forever to boot; and that is assuming that at least ONE of them is the true Christian church (tm). If Islam turns out to be the One True Religion (tm) then you can up your chances of eternal hellfire to 100% certainty.

Taking the preceeding into account I offer you my own wager:

1) Either the Bible/Qur'an/Book of Mormon is or is not the word of God

2) If it isn't the word of God, you can enjoy yourself all you want in this life without facing any consequences in the next one.

3) If, however, one of these books IS the word of God, it is almost certain that you will be damned for all eternity no matter how you live or what you believe; therefore...

4) You may as well live your life as if all these holy books are poppycock and enjoy yourself.

38

If we are further away from perfection, why are we more moral?

by stuckinarut2 in

as we know, witnesses teach that adam and eve were perfect and then committed the first act of sin and rebellion.. they in turn were cursed,and we all declined as their offspring.

humans supposedly lived shorter and shorter lives, and became more imperfect and sinful.. the further away in time humans go then, they should be getting worse.

so why is it then that as a society, humans have actually improved in so many ways?.

Rainbow_Troll

But the world is getting worse. As you mentioned:

For instance, in bible times, women and girls were simply property to be abused as men wished. Even Gods nation could fight the neighboring lands and take the women and virgins off as captives for their "use".

But now days most of the world has departed from these godly standards and recognized women as the equals to men; soon even children will be given civil rights! Homosexuals are no longer stoned or even imprisoned in the US and EU, but are actually protected by special laws. What's next? Rights for pedophiles and zoophiles? Should chimps and gorillas be recognized as people since, as godless darwinists like me assert, they are our cousins?

Make no mistake about it: humans are becoming worse and worse every day. We are departing further and further from the divine plan. Soon our father below will storm the Heavens, slaughter God and his Angels and finally put an end to His abortive creation.

Zasass Zasass Azerate. Hail Satan!

10

Growing up JW kid: do you recognize

by Gorbatchov in

jw
friends

born in 1970, 4th generation jw and parents who were loyal to but could also think on their own.. my father always said, the show goes on, so he had a respectable community job, advisor of the city counsel of the town.

and buying ald building houses for us.

we were on the move.. what i remember is the many conversations at home about the other witnesses.

Rainbow_Troll

I guess you could say I had a 'moderate' JW childhood. My dad was an atheist who was raised protestant but ended up hating religion and my mom was fairly liberal for a JW. We secretly celebrated Thanksgiving, Christmas and birthdays. Before my dad died, I even got to do a little trick-or-treating and when I was in 2nd grade I had a girlfriend. My dad had a good job, invested a lot in my education and encouraged me to study science and math until he died when I was seven.

From then on, things pretty much went to Hell. We moved to a crime-ridden rural area with unspeakably terrible schools and fundy Christians and racists for neighbors. I got into fights several times a week and was nearly raped and killed on several occasions. My mom went on welfare and encouraged me to do the same when I became an adult. I had some good JW friends, though, or so I thought at the time. We went through lots of dangerous adventures together, did some drugs and ended up forming a sort of hopeless love triangle where he was in love with me and I was in love with her, but none of it was mutual. They won't talk to me now, but I still like to annoy them from time to time by sending them unwanted letters, emails and gifts. I'd rather they hate me than just forget that I was ever alive.

Even so, sometimes I wonder if that extra bit of freedom I had as a child made it easier for me to leave the JWs later on. I thank my dad for impressing upon me a love of knowledge and liberty as well as an accompanying contempt for faith and stupidity.

147

Scientism - Nothing But a Childish Insult?

by cofty in

it is not uncommon for theists to accuse rational people on this forum of "scientism".. in my opinion it is nothing but a cheap shot from those who know they lack evidence for their beliefs.

if something like "scientism" actually does exist then i have never encountered it.. here is part of an exchange from another thread - i have brought it here as it was off-topic.... scientism = claim of scientific method being universal and the only valid method of knowledge.

followers of scientism always demand scientific evidence to anything.

Rainbow_Troll

Actually scientism is very well defined by great philosophers of science like Popper and Putnam for instance.

It is, but as far as I am aware, 'scientism' is always used polemically by those who are critical of the universal applicability of the scientific method. No one who actually believes that the scientific method is the only means to knowledge ever refers to their position as 'scientism' The suffix 'ism' is usually applied to religion or similarly dogmatic ideologies, while scientists consider themselves to be open minded and dogma-free. To tag 'ism' to the end of science, implies that science is just as dogmatic as any religion. The way the word is put together is inherently biased against the position it is applied to. It's like calling a Catholic a Papist or telling a homosexual he is a sodomite. You may not mean it to be derogatory, but that's how it feels for those who get labeled with it.

147

Scientism - Nothing But a Childish Insult?

by cofty in

it is not uncommon for theists to accuse rational people on this forum of "scientism".. in my opinion it is nothing but a cheap shot from those who know they lack evidence for their beliefs.

if something like "scientism" actually does exist then i have never encountered it.. here is part of an exchange from another thread - i have brought it here as it was off-topic.... scientism = claim of scientific method being universal and the only valid method of knowledge.

followers of scientism always demand scientific evidence to anything.

Rainbow_Troll

John_Mann, I agree that what you consider scientism does exist, but actually calling it 'scientism' is very provocative towards scientists who don't necessarily fit that label. It's kind of like calling Roman Catholics 'Mary Worshippers' even though it is not part of official Catholic dogma to worship Mary and most Catholics do not actually do it.

What you describe as scientism sounds a lot like the philosophical positions of radical empiricism and logical positivism. If you used one of those terms instead of 'scientism', I think you would get a much warmer response from scientists and might actually be able to engage in a dialogue with them.

24

Church gets own police force - are the Dubs next?

by SadElder in

just read this article in the washington times.

other sites have similar stories.. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/12/briarwood-presbyterian-alabama-megachurch-gets-sta/.

can you imagine the dubs with a sworn police force with arrest powers?.

Rainbow_Troll

I think the WT is way to cheap to undertake something like this. Even if the 'police' are all volunteers from the congregation, it would still cost money that could be better spent printing publications and silencing sexually abused children. You also have to ask yourself why? Do JWs actually feel unsafe in their kingdom halls? Is the off chance that some ex-jw basket case will enter a KH one evening with a submachine gun and shoot the place full of holes justify a police force? The cost would far outweigh the benefits.

Spoletta: On a side note, they've started locking the doors at our hall after the meeting starts.

Holy shit! That's creepy. Isn't it a fire code violation?

48

Disfellowshipping decision to go before Canadian Supreme Court

by Simon in

high court will examine whether judicial review applies to membership decisions made by religious groups.

the supreme court of canada has agreed to hear an appeal involving a calgary man who was kicked out of his jehovah's witness church.. randy wall, a real estate agent was "disfellowshipped" from the highwood congregation for being drunk on two occasions and allegedly verbally abusing his wife.. as a result, he says his clients refused to do further business with him, so he argued his property and civil rights were affected.. after losing three internal church appeals of his expulsion, wall made an application with the court of queen's bench in calgary which ordered a hearing to first determine if there was jurisdiction for the court to hear the application.. decisions and appeals.

a judge decided the superior court did have jurisdiction to hear the application.. the church then appealed wall's decision to the alberta court of appeal, which upheld the court of queen's bench, affirming the court has jurisdiction to hear the matter.. one of the three appeal court judges dissented — arguing that congregations are private organizations akin to bridge clubs, whose decisions "are not enforceable promises and have limited, if any, impact outside its small circle.".

Rainbow_Troll

He would have a much stronger case if he had been DF'd for apostasy, smoking or celebrating Christmas. Too bad the question of whether shunning is sue-worthy or not rests on an incident like this. I have heard of and personally witnessed far worse cases of DFing than this, but the victim just wasn't willing to take it to court.

Rainbow_Troll

Posts by Rainbow_Troll