Posts by GodBeliever

17

How To Talk About Interpretation With Jehovah's Witnesses.

by Vanderhoven7 in

this from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.

before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).

i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.

GodBeliever

Agree

17

How To Talk About Interpretation With Jehovah's Witnesses.

by Vanderhoven7 in

this from my book: good news for jehovah's witnesses.

before we discuss any doctrinal issues, i would like to distinguish between what i believe is proper versus improper interpretive practice.... so you know what i can accept as biblical and what i can't accept.. basic guidelines for validating doctrinal claims`).

i. there must be at least one scriptural reference that can be cited for support of any doctrinal claim or position.. ii.

GodBeliever

"Over 20 Questions posed by the illustrious VDH on ONE post. That's why I refuse to discuss anything with him. Things never get anywhere because he seldom gets the answer he wants and then accuses others of NOT answering questions".

"For the Lord has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has shut your eyes (the prophets) and covered your heads (the seers). For you the vision of all this has become like the words of a sealed scroll. When it is handed to one who can read, with the request, “Read this,” the reply is, “I cannot, because it is sealed.” When the scroll is handed to one who cannot read, with the request, “Read this,” the reply is, “I cannot read.” The Lord said: Since this people draws near with words only and honors me with their lips alone, though their hearts are far from me, And fear of me has become mere precept of human teaching, Therefore I will again deal with this people in surprising and wondrous fashion: The wisdom of the wise shall perish, the prudence of the prudent shall vanish. Ah! You who would hide a plan too deep for the Lord! Who work in the dark, saying, “Who sees us, who knows us?”
Isaiah 29:10‭-‬15

"Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away. Rather, we speak God’s wisdom, mysterious, hidden, which God predetermined before the ages for our glory, But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” this God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms.
1 Corinthians 2:6‭-‬7‭, ‬9‭-‬10‭, ‬12‭-‬13

"I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Matthew 23:39

Nobody can see Jesus again if they do not accept his newly established kingdom in heaven.

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

Hi Boogerman,

I am not posting here to convince anyone of my beliefs. You can't make anyone believe something unless they are willing to believe. You see : "faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen. For by it the people of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him." Hebrews 11:1‭-‬3‭, "

"We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. But the one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no one."1 Cor 2:13‭-‬15 ‬

"for we walk by faith, not by sight"—2 Cor.

"Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”Luke 17:20‭-‬21

Only those who are part of the kingdom of God can see it.

Just wanted to point out the precarious position of Governing Body which is unable to support their standing with Jehovah's witnesses original understanding of the bible. As a consequence they keep changing those teachings becoming ridiculous. I hope people from inside the organisation who are honest with Jehovah and Jesus and even themselves to figure that out.

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

When I said they have fallen under the influence of Satan I meant the leadership. Otherwise I believe there are many honest and good people in the faith.

‘For wicked people are found among My people, They watch like fowlers lying in wait; They set a trap, They catch people. ‘Like a cage full of birds, So their houses are full of deceit; Therefore they have become great and rich. ‘They are fat, they are sleek, They also excel in deeds of wickedness; They do not plead the cause, The cause of the orphan, so that they may be successful; And they do not defend the rights of the poor. ‘Shall I not punish them for these things?’ declares the Lord, ‘Or shall I not avenge Myself On a nation such as this?’ ¶“An appalling and horrible thing Has happened in the land: The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule on their own authority; And My people love it this way! But what will you do when the end comes?

Jeremiah 5:26‭-‬31

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

Boogerman

This is my answer to your question.

Why Jehovah's witnesses?

Apostle John had a vision in revelation 17, where he was shown a prostitute sitting on many waters and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery: “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."Revelation 17:5 , and of this woman who is drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
Revelation 17:6.

She is not guilty of murdering only the saints but also of a lot of other innocent people throughout history by causing war and by keeping people away from the truths of the bible so they can't find salvation in the blood of Christ.
"

Then a strong angel picked up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will never be found again. and the light of a lamp will never shine in you again; and the voice of the groom and bride will never be heard in you again; for your merchants were the powerful people of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your witchcraft. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
Revelation 18:21‭, ‬23‭-‬24
John identified this prostitute as the city of Rome. And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages. The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Revelation 17:15‭, ‬18 .
If you follow the course of history you will see that the roman empire adopted christianity and eventually became The today Romano catholic church which is based in Rome at Vatican. This religious institution grew strong and for long time controlled the world through different European powers. They also continued to teach pagan doctrines and follow pagan and roman traditions. They even used the same oppression techniques as the bloodthirsty roman empire.
God does not accept such institution.

God tells his people to flee out of "Babylon" this church empire that caused so much suffering. "The Lord has bared His holy arm In the sight of all the nations, So that all the ends of the earth may see The salvation of our God. Depart, depart, go out from there, Do not touch what is unclean; Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves, You who carry the vessels of the Lord."Isaiah 52:10‭-‬11
“Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive any of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her offenses.
Revelation 18:4‭-‬5
Although other protestant movements left the catholic church, " Babylon the great", only Jehovah's witnesses listened to God's comand not to touch anything on their way out while fleeing.
As for all the others, they took all or some with them from the catholic church such as pagan doctrines and traditions which God do not accept.

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:8‭-‬9. And Paul also said this to the Corinthians who became Christians but they were still respecting pagan traditions."However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Galatians 4:8‭-‬11
For the radical position Jehovah's witnesses adopted regarding anything coming from the catholic church, they were harshly punished and falsely accused.
"The beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses have engendered controversy throughout their history. Consequently, the denomination has been opposed by local governments, communities, and religious groups. Many Christian denominations consider the interpretations and doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses heretical, and some professors of religion have classified the denomination as a cult.[1][2]

According to law professor Archibald Cox, Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States were "the principal victims of religious persecution … they began to attract attention and provoke repression in the 1930s, when their proselytizing and numbers rapidly increased."[3] At times, political and religious animosity against Jehovah's Witnesses has led to mob action and governmental repression in various countries including the United States, Canada and Nazi Germany."

Nobody can deny that late 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century humanity went through the most spectacular transformation in its entire history. I believe that coincides with the second coming of Jesus in heaven and the start of His kingdom. Jehovah's witnesses are the ones Jesus have chosen to announce the Kingdom message.

However lately the have fell under the Satan influence as the bible predicted and they have become part of the world (the evil slave that is mentioned in the bible)

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

Hi Vanderhoven,

For there is no good tree that bears bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree that bears good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil person out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
Luke 6:43‭-‬45
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father.
John 14:12
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God on the day of visitation.
1 Peter 2:9‭-‬12

What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:14‭-‬20‭, ‬22‭-‬24

Faith and good works are inseparable.

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

I believe all to be corect.

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

We just can go on and on like this. I told you what I believe and ultimately is God through Jesus who will judge anyone according to their standing.

The Jewish people were waiting fo Messiah but when Jesus came they did not believe that he was the one. He proclaimed the message of the kingdom that was about to come but they rejected that message. You know what happened to them.

Let's say hypothetically that Jesus returned as king in heaven and He moved some honest people and commissioned them to announce the newly established kingdom. What will happen to those of christianity who do not believe and reject Jesus's second coming. Are they not in the same position as the Jewish nation who by the way they still waiting for Messiah?

"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8

For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be stirred up as in the Valley of Gibeon, To do His task, His unusual task, And to work His work, His extraordinary work. And now do not carry on as scoffers, Or your shackles will be made stronger; For I have heard from the Lord God of armies Of decisive destruction on all the earth. Listen and hear my voice, Pay attention and hear my words. Does the farmer plow continually to plant seed? Does he continually turn and break up his ground?" Isaiah 28:21‭-‬24

"Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" Isaiah 53:1

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:12‭-‬14

I don't see there will be another gospel preached from now on. We are at the moment in time when people moving away from everything is God.

As for Jehovah's witnesses literature I only read anything until 1949. Although there is some truth in it after that, I believe they started falling away from the truth as the bible predicted and ultimately they have become the evil servant they are today.

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority was given to him over every tribe, people, language, and nation. All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints."

Revelation 13:7‭-‬8‭, ‬10

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

Vanderhoven,

"Looking at the Watchtower now:

Everything is about power and control of the organization run by the evil slave who has written himself into the salvation formula, that denigrates the Bible, elevating himself above scripture, destroying families over extra-biblical commands of men and preaches an unrelatable Jesus and preaches a non-salvivic gospel turning many of their adherents into theocratic deceivers. And whoever challenges this evil slave gets punished."

I agree with some of your statemens. That's why I post here. However, I have different reasons. They started all this deception around 1954. Before that I believe they were a community of Christians that have a clear insight of bible truths. They failed to predict accurately some prophecies because it was not given to humans to know when the end comes. Even some of the apostles believed that Jesus will return in their lifetime but that didn't make them false profets.

https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/worship-jesus.php

This denying of Jesus started in 1954. Desfeloshiping started back then as well as many other wrong teachings.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 2:1‭-‬3 KJV

Before 1954 the teachings about Jesus, were different.

But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and he eats and drinks with those habitually drunk; then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and he will cut him in two and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Matthew 24:48‭-‬51

Yes, I agree they mistreat their fellow believers and they are rather a high control organisation. This makes them evil slave. It wasn't like that in the beginning.

No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.2 Thessalonians 2:3‭-‬4‭, ‬8‭-‬12

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.1 Corinthians 3:16‭-‬17

All this facts and prophecies rather approve than disprove that they had the truth.

The man of sin can only come from amongst Jesus's church like Judah and they enter God's temple. The temple of God is where his church is. Although I do not look up to Watchtower as an organisation, I believe the faithful slave that was chosen by Jesus at his second coming in heaven, used it to preach the truths of the newly established kingdom. It is yet to happen on earth as the Lord's prayer says.

A lot of what they teach at this moment I believe is false.

71

Wrong Religion

by Vanderhoven7 in

we brainstormed a while back on this forum and pooled our knowledge on how to recognize false religion.

i think the list is worth reviewing and adding to if possible.

please feel free to correct and or add insights of your own to this list:.

GodBeliever

Hi Vanderhoven

Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I was curious about many religios and I have come in contact with this understandings before.

"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. .Matthew 24:21‭-‬22. You belief probably is that the earth will burn with literall fire at Jesus's second coming and all Christians will be raptured to heaven. Everyone else will die . Meanwhile God will create another earth, Christians will return, the just und the unjust will be resurrected on that paradise earth for life and judgement. In the end after the thousand years all that will not be faithful will go down in the second death and there will not be few.

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:87-‬10‭, ‬13‭-‬18

Your beliefs are very similar to Jws, so acussing them of the same things you believe is not fair.
But we are missing the bigger picture here. The real problem with christianity started with Jesus and the apostles. Not being under the control of the state( the roman empire) christianity was a serious issue and needed to be dealt with. Back then Christians didn't want to have anything to do with the oppressive roman empire. And they found a refuge in the new faith by holding on to Jesus's commandments.
And Jesus said to them, “Pay to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” Pay to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; respect to whom respect; honor to whom honor.Romans 13:7. "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."
John 17:14‭, ‬16 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this purpose I have been born, and for this I have come into the world: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.”
John 18:36‭-‬37.

The problem was that people worshipped caesar as god too, so he wanted not only what was his, but he wanted what was God's as well. He wanted to be loved by his subjects. It was a big thing to be loved by the masses in roman times. Jesus was seen as a threat. So the persecution of Christians started.

It didn't work out and christianity couldn't be stopped but grew into a social phenomenon. It was emperor Constantine who came to the idea to make christianity as the official religion of the Roman empire. So it worked. The roman empire through Vatican managed to rule the world for more than 1000 years. It was not until the renaissance when people started to question the right of Vatican to rule under the divine right. (Medici family, philipIV of france, Martin Luther, and king Henry VIII of England and some protestant priests who translated the bible in English.) It was the french revolution who contested the right of kings to rule under divine right as well. All these weakened the catholic church and we live in a time when they almost have not power at all. However, the modern state learned from that and incorporated the Christian religion, so they can have Devine authority over people (soft power).

In the last century Rutherford came with the idea that the governments of this world are not appointed by God. He together with a few others were imprisoned for sedition. The catholic church was very angry with JWs because they tried contesting their ingenious invention where christianity was incorporated in the state, and they constantly pursued an aggressive action against them. This was when all the trouble for jws started and it not stopped until early sixties when they changed the Romans 13 interpretation. From there on Watchtower made efforts to reconcile with secular leaders. They became state approved religious organisation. They became associated as NGO with the UN, they appointed a representative at OSCE. They convinced most western democracies of their good intentions and they have become widely accepted. It took a bit longer to convince France, but in 2009 even there Watchtower received legal approval.

What can I say is that everything is about power and control of the state. Who dare to challenge that gets punished. Otherwise nobody cares what someone believes as long as it does not bother Caesar. Probably you don't like Jehovah's witnesses because they believe they are the only ones to be saved. If you are confident with your standing what does it matter that much. If people are honest God can save them just by reading the bible but only with His help.