Posts by jwundubbed

75

Apostasy: The Movie - Directed by Daniel Kokotajlo

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

daniel kokotajlo's new film apostasy has it's world premiere at the toronto international film festival in september 2017. apostasy.

family and faith come into conflict for two jehovah’s witness sisters in manchester, when one is condemned for fornication and the other pressured to shun her sibling.. this fresh, unadorned first feature from director dan kokotajlo carries an unmistakable note of authenticity from its very first scenes.

set in a jehovah's witness community in england, the film's strength and power lies in its directness.. apostasy depicts the growing rift in a family — a mother and two daughters — who are rigorously devoted to their religion.

jwundubbed

Okay, how do you find out if this movie will be playing anywhere near you?

19

Debating a Christian at work.

by pseudoxristos in

a christian at work has been after me for more than a year to go to his church and be saved.

i like the guy and consider him a friend and have been politely trying to avoid the subject.

i have recently decided that enough is enough and i told him i would discuss religion with him.

jwundubbed

I think I've finally got him to agree to discuss the problems I find in the Bible (instead of the emotional experience of the Lord coming to be with him, which I have no idea how to debate).

If his experience is emotional... then share your emotional reaction with him. Or... You could say something like...

"I can see that your experience has given you a lot of comfort. I find the most comfort in seeing the world through the eyes of science. If there is a God, I think he understands my needs and I don't think he would deny me that which brings me the most comfort. I would really appreciate it if you would stop assuming that I am unhappy because I have a different experience from your own. I have already been saved and I am very happy with my circumstances just as they are."

30

Do not think the end will come?

by Akid48 in

thats somthing i see thats asked in my kingdom hall if you want to go get more than 2 years in collage.thing in some one asking that to me or etc i cant say any thing or that would show that i dont believe.. i hate when some one askes me that when i try to plan ahead when it comes to what job i want.what job would help me hold my own but no god will give if you put him first.i dont believe in god even when i did i never buyed into that.. it seems you cant get away from the question im only 13 and i get that question theres no getting away from it..

jwundubbed

"I not only believe, I trust God enough to take him at his word. He said that no one will know when it will happen. I don't need to speculate. I need to live in this system until the end does come."

Real logic may be lost on your audience. Why plan for an outcome that someone else has already taken care of. That doesn't make any sense. Better to be efficient and productive enough to plan for the things that other person (or God) hasn't planned for you.

26

Is there anything good JWs taught you still benefit from?

by venus in

some years ago, i attended a jw wedding.

marriage speaker said something which changed my life for the better, and it helps me even now.

he told the couple: “the very make up of man and woman is such that conflicts can often arise between you.

jwundubbed

I got some very good lessons from being a JW, specifically from what they taught us. I was a born-in so sometimes the lessons I learned weren't what the converted would notice. But some of them very much apply to my life now and will for the rest of my life.

1.) I was not taught to be racist. I happened to spend most of my life in the Philadelphia area, which has a lot of immigrants. There was always a lot of diversity in my congregations which was also reflected in the publications. I'm not ignorant enough to think that there is never racism in the whole organization, only that I didn't experience it and I wasn't taught to be racist.

2.) I was taught to think about what I am doing and why I am doing it. I am a proud American and yet I have never pledged my allegiance to the flag and I never will. I took the time to think this through once I left the cult and realized that I think it is dumb to pledge my allegiance to any representation of my country because people can misuse a 'representation' of the country. This teaching didn't work in favor of the cult however, in fact it backfired. But it has been a very good lesson.

3.) I was taught to be strong enough that other's people's opinions neither sway me nor harm me. It sucked growing up being bullied for being different and always being on the outside because I couldn't do anything fun, or anything the other kids were doing. But as an adult I find that to be a really really good skill to have.

10

No shame in being apostate

by venus in

the one who is standing away is apostate (literally "to stand off," from apo- "away from" + stenai "to stand").

ironically, proponents of untruth may call truth-seekers as apostates, thus making the term meaningless.. for example, paul, the greatest of all apostles, taught untruth (stood away from truth) [see his main teaching in romans 5:12-21] even though he had known the following truths:.

1) all humans did not become sinners through one man (genesis 5:24; job 1:8; psalm 18:23; ezekiel 14:14 and compare habakkuk 2:4), hence there was no need for anyone to pay ransom.. 2) in the old testament, the messiah refers to a “prince of peace” who literally rules from jerusalem, not merely anointed to the office to do the work in some distant future and get killed before that future occurs.

jwundubbed

I don't need any bible verses to determine if name-calling is wrong. When you call any person a name, that isn't their own, and use it to insult, demean, or humiliate them... it is wrong.

But if you do need a bible verse, I would go with that one about doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Either way, name-calling is wrong. And the people doing the name-calling are in the wrong. And... their opinions of me aren't any of my business.

41

Will YOU Ever Leave The Watchtower Org.?

by minimus in

jw
friends

there is usually a metamorphosis that takes place for a person to leave the jehovah's witness religion.

most people do not just up and go simply because they realize this could not be the truth.

it often takes time.. for those that go to meetings or engage in the ministry, will you forever continue doing these things, knowing that it is all bs?

jwundubbed

They have sometimes unknowingly helped people to remain in the organization because they knew know better.

I just have to say this.... they knew NO better. I don't have any idea why you would knowingly mispell that word. It doesn't help you make your point.

However with knowledge comes responsibility.

And what is it that gives you the right to dictate how exactly others should use their knowledge responsibly? You are telling us that you are better than them because you eventually left. How exactly is that better than staying and trying to effect some change?

That is like telling all the Americans who don't like that Trump became president to jump ship and go live in a country they like better. If you want things to change, you don't run away... you fight for that change. And how you fight can work in a bunch of different ways. You can educate people. You can support people. You can show them there are other ways. You can leak documents that prove the bad guys are at fault.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the idea that the only people who make the right choices are they ones who made the same choice that you made.

Actually, that sounds like you have a lot of guilt you are living with and you want others to validate your idea that you did the right thing. You did the right thing for you. Don't tell other people what their right thing to do is. Let them make that choice for themselves. And they you all live with your choices. And you deal with your feelings about it... on your own time. Not by insulting people who made different choices than the ones you made.

And for the love of God and everyone else in the world, please stop propogating the idea that there is ANY SINGLE RIGHT WAY OF DOING ANYTHING. No one can live up to that completely unrealistic standard. And it isn't true. It IS a JWism. Why does there have to be only one right way? Sounds to me like you have some internal issues to work on.

When they get to the point where they know without a doubt that what they're teaching is wrong they should not continue to teach innocent sheep falsehoods that ultimately will wreck their lives.

But it doesn't wreck everyone's lives. If it did, the sheeple would all flee. Have you ever been around or seen sheep? When there is danger, they run away. So, if every single one of the JWs was going to have their lives wrecked, they would run away from it. They aren't fleeing because some of them are happy right where they are. Their lives aren't ruined nor wrecked. So... if you are in a position of authority over people, you are teaching them something that you think is wrong, but only some are wrecked by it... then how do you know what is the right step to take?

It isn't simple. It isn't black and white. And it is really gross on your part to act like you are better than the others because you eventually made a choice you can live with. Take it down a notch. Because I get the feeling that you are being so vocal about it because you had choices that you feel guilty about. Man up and stop putting your inadequacies onto other people. They have enough to deal with on their own.

There is no ONE SINGLE CHOICE, any more than there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Dude! No one outside of the JWs wants to be treated that way, so stop treating people that way. It only makes you look bad.

41

Will YOU Ever Leave The Watchtower Org.?

by minimus in

jw
friends

there is usually a metamorphosis that takes place for a person to leave the jehovah's witness religion.

most people do not just up and go simply because they realize this could not be the truth.

it often takes time.. for those that go to meetings or engage in the ministry, will you forever continue doing these things, knowing that it is all bs?

jwundubbed

Jwundubbed.... I read your entire post and was very impressed with your ability to communicate so easily all that you went through. Unfortunately you seem to miss one point. I was primarily referring to elders and ministerial servant's and others in position who absolutely no better and continue to play both sides to the middle.

@minimus, You are right. I missed that point. Sorry about that.

But... then I have to say that while I don't understand their motives and choices... I am in awe of them for trying something that I don't think I could ever do. From what I have seen many of those elders and ministerial servants try to help those who are in to see a different truth, or help to give their flock a more balanced point of view. That is an insanely courageous choice to make. It is dangerous too, because just being around the rhetoric and doing the autopilot thing can make you question your questions. And if you get DF'd at that point it is a much longer way down than for the rest of the lowly rank and file.

I think that anyone who feels compelled to stay and try to help others in a meaningful way (not just to tell them that their truth is wrong) is a special kind of hero actually. I couldn't do that. They do it despite their fears and the risks.

And for those who stay to help others, it wouldn't be the knowledge that it is wrong that would be their motivating factor for leaving. Your assumption still remains, that the fact that the JWs have it wrong is everyone's motivating factor for leaving. But people leave for a lot of other reasons besides knowing that it the JWs are wrong.

And... it is even less simple for elders and such than it is for everyone else. They have to live with the knowledge that they taught people these things. They have to live with all the wrongs they may have committed against people in the name of their god. They took a lot more action then the rest of us lowly ones. So, I say again, shame on you for acting like anyone's choice is somehow more simple than the rest of us had it. And shame on you for thinking that it is your right to judge other people based on your experience.

You did what was right for you. How dare you tell people they should do this your way. You should get the right make your choices but then others should not have that same right, they should be forced to make the choice that you feel is right? THAT is what I call BS on.

41

Will YOU Ever Leave The Watchtower Org.?

by minimus in

jw
friends

there is usually a metamorphosis that takes place for a person to leave the jehovah's witness religion.

most people do not just up and go simply because they realize this could not be the truth.

it often takes time.. for those that go to meetings or engage in the ministry, will you forever continue doing these things, knowing that it is all bs?

jwundubbed

My parents were critical believers. They would regularly get together with two other couples, send all the kids out to play, and then criticize every single part of being a JW. Us kids heard a lot more than our parents thought we did.

When I was growing up, while the other JW kids were having home studies (I remember this being a recommended part of our lives in addition to all the freakin' meetings and service) my dad took us to the library and made us look up outside sources and write up critical thinking papers about our own beliefs.

My mother saw the light and believed herself to be annointed since before any of us kids were born. I can tell you that long before new light came out talking about how women and mentally ill people couldn't be annointed, my mother made a huge distinction between Jehovah and the very fallible humans (men) who were the Governing Body.

My father was a scientist. He became a scientist after he became a JW. He spent my entire childhood going through college all the way up to his doctorate. He learned Greek so that he could read the original Greek scriptures to understand them better. His critical comments became real questioning in my early teens.

And yet... we still went to the meetings, and in service. Part of cognitive dissonance is muscle memory and autopilot. A big part of cognitive dissonance is engaging in your normal patterns of behavior even when your mind is questioning things.

I was introverted, shy, and super submissive. Even with that, I knew that the men in the congregations I was growing up with were domineering misogynistic arses. But they were also Elders and Brothers with capital letters.

My father's family were all Catholic.... which has a lot of the same themes as the JWs. They are mostly nice people. But they are religiously conservative. We didn't have a lot of contact with them. My mother's family are almost all JWs. And her side of the family is German-American. Men are precious people, and women are dirt. Another recurring set of themes.

Even though I was submissive, shy, and introverted I still had eyes and ears and I knew when things were, Just. Wrong. I watched all the kids of the critical parents as they were treated with disdain, refused baptism over and over again, shunned for no reason sometimes, marked for no reason sometimes, and eventually forced to leave or kicked out for no good reasons. They were the children of non-conformists... people who voiced opposition. They were dangerous.

I didn't leave because of all of this. It kept me from going back. But it isn't what initiated my departure. The one defining moment for me was when I asked to get baptized. I had put in a mountain of time and effort and anyone who knew me saw it. The elder I went to told me no right away. He didn't even consider talking to the other elders. Just... no. What I didn't know was that both my sisters had made the same request at the same time. The elders apparently thought we were doing it as a game. But, it was still their responsibility to talk to us and find out if that was the case. They didn't. What I knew was that I was another kid who was being denied because my parents talked about things they shouldn't.

I was the first of my siblings to get baptized. I got baptized at the very next summer convention at the Vet Stadium. I think it was 1992 or 1993. I actually can't remember now. And it was the first and biggest act of defiance I had ever engaged in. My parents approved, as did my siblings. I didn't ask the elders again. I didn't answer any of the questions. I simply went to a convention that wasn't my own, sat with the other candidates, took the vow, and then got dunked. I was having my period, I had bronchitis and a fever of 102 but I was damned if the ignorant elders in my congregation were going to keep me from getting baptized. At the point where you are dedicating your life to the organization, I swore to Jehovah that I was devoting my life to him and not his clearly dysfunctional organization.

Then I went back to my congregation and notified the elders that I had gone and gotten baptized. To this day I wonder if it was complete shock that made them announce it from the podium to the entire congregation. And that was the beginning of the end.

I didn't even realize it at the time. I defied them in a HUGE way and nothing happened... I truly believed that God was on my side. But I also lost all faith in the organization. It was then that I started changing my life. I still struggled for a couple of years in the cult. I was still in high school. I had big problems to deal with in my personal life. But I continued to operate on autopilot.

I stopped going to the meetings when I started experiencing panic attacks so bad that I would lose control over my body and literally couldn't walk into a Kingdom Hall. It was the PTSD that finally stopped me from operating on JW autopilot. And it was the PTSD that got me thinking... but not until much later when it got better.

It was being away from the cult and leaving the guilt behind (at least a little bit of it) that made me leave mentally. It was also the fact that my little sister started a rumor about me that caused my entire extended JW family to shun me that made me leave. The rumor was a lie. No one even tried to find out from me what happened. I didn't even know my sister had done that. I was just suddenly shunned. So... I took a couple of days to think about how I wanted to live my life and I made the decision to be true to myself. My mental connection to the 'truth' ended in that moment. I went home and told my immediate family a truth about myself. My dad and my older sister were on their way out and they didn't receive the news well, but they didn't shun me. My mom and my other two siblings did. And I just never even tried to go back after that.

I mentally snapped out of it, just like that. But I still had PTSD and recovery to go through, which took decades.

So, why did I write all this out? Because leaving a cult, or a religion isn't simple. You can ask a question like you have like it is super easy, black and white, and completely illogical to stay... but that isn't how life works. We aren't just brainwashed by the cult. We are a product of our heritage, our cultures, and our societies. We are the product of our backgrounds. Then you take the fact that we were taught what we were taught... akin to the earth is flat and now we have to re-educate ourselves and figure out what is real, what is not, what we believe, what we don't and learn to find a new equilibrium and that is a massive undertaking. Nothing in life is as easy as you just made it out to be..

And, shame on you for trying to make people feel like it should be simple to sift through, figure out, and deal with all of that on top of the very real threats of losing their families and being shunned! Give people a break. That they are even questioning is huge! That they are here... is a big deal. Don't invalidate that. It isn't your place. It will take the time that it takes.

15

Update: My current situation

by Issa in

it's been about two months since i stopped attending meetings, came to the conclusion that the org is not the truth, and i'm currently dealing with some problems since leaving the org.

i want to discuss these problems and hopefully get helpful advice.. discovering the truth about ourselves is a lifetime's work, but it's worth the effort - fred rogers.

my current situation in this: i faded and hold off on writing a disassociation letter.

jwundubbed

How should I react when I meet any sister or brother? I try to avoid meeting them, but at any point I will meet them again.

Smile. Be polite. Keep it short. Don't explain yourself. Don't tell them that you left. As someone else said on another thread, look at your watch and tell them you are late for an appointment. Or, don't look at your watch and just tell them you have somewhere you have to be.

My problem is my father insisting me that I should talk to the elders. So far, only one elder texted me to know how I am doing. From what I've been researching and hearing, Judicial Committees are the worst. I'm not planning or even considered meeting with the elders.

As others have said, don't meet with the elders. Their only reason for meeting with you is to see if you are repentant, which you aren't. Also, you are a woman and you will be distrusted more than any man facing the same consequences. Tell your dad that you appreciate his concern, but you have prayed about it and feel that you know the right thing to do now. Don't explain further. Keep it short. Stop trying to convince him that his religion is wrong. No one convinced you of that. You came to that conclusion on your own. Your family and friends deserve to have their own truths. They may find the same one that you did or they may not. But you cannot change their minds. Only they can do that. So stop trying. Also, trying to change their minds about their religion is not fading. So, take a step back. Let them have time to see that you are the same person you always were. Let them know that you aren't trying to get them to leave the organization. Tell them you are having a hard time but you are praying about it.

Then, as others have said, build yourself a new support network outside of the cult. Get involved in some activities that you enjoy and start meeting people. It will get better when you have your own community and social support. That isn't to say that it will ever get any easier to deal with family who are still in. I haven't found that to be true. But, it gets easier to have times when you don't think about it because you will begin to build a new chosen family.

Another problem is that my siblings (one left the org for personal reasons, the other was studying with a witness) are treating me harshly than before. This is one of the consequences that I accepted, even so, it pains me that my siblings are reacting this way. I can't talk about why the org is not the truth without getting backlash from my sisters.

Then stop talking about it. Wasn't it painful for you when you realized that the Truth wasn't the truth? Do you really want to put them through that? You are not responsible for their beliefs. It isn't your place to put them through hell because you see it differently now. It would be nice and easier if they believed like you do. But you aren't a JW anymore. So stop trying to make them believe what you believe. It will only hurt everyone. If they find that truth for themselves... great. If they left the cult for their own reasons, then why do you feel it necessary to force your new beliefs on them?

You have been taught that it is your personal responsibility to bring the truth to people. But that isn't true. Your responsibility is to live your life in a way that is responsible to you. You have rights but you also have responsibilities. Your families souls or beliefs are not your responsibility. Stop taking that on.

To be honest... trying to make our families see our truths is a great way to deflect our pain. You have lived for a long time seeing only a future that is bright and now that is gone you may not see the future at all. Then start living in the present. Deal with your pain. Get some professional help. Meet people at every opportunity and you will find out that the 'world' is a really nice and caring place. You will find that people are, in general, very good and want to help.

Last but not least... it is time for you to recognize that there is no such thing as The Truth. There is your truth, my truth, his truth, a collective truth, a social truth, an organizational truth, a sytemic truth, a national truth, etc. etc. etc. Truth is subjective. People coming out of the cult talk about 'The TRUTH about THE TRUTH'. And that isn't a bad thing. It helps a lot of people.

But truth is subjective. There is no One Truth about The Truth. There are many truths about the truth. For some, their truth is that THE TRUTH is the truth. And you don't have any ability to alter their truth. Only they can do that.

My truth about the JWs is not the same as your truth about the JWs. I have been out for 20 years now and I still don't care about all those items that you mentioned. You aren't wrong, but those are not my truths. I don't care about those things because they never had much of an impact on me. I can't even say that the rampant child abuse is a big factor for me. I saw too much of it among my friends. I grew up watching and experiencing the knowledge that women and children have no rights among the JWs and we were never good for anything but being the property of, the objects, of the playthings of, and the punching bags of men. That was my truth. But that didn't make me leave the cult because that was my reality. I didn't know there was another reality. I didn't know there were many other realities.

You have found the things that made you think twice. That doesn't mean that they will make anyone else think twice as well. Each person has their own truth and only they will find things that will make them take a closer look or change their minds. Sometimes they won't find those things. So stop trying to do something that is outside your ability to do.

Edit: To be clear, when I said I don't care about the things the OP mentioned, I don't mean that I don't care about them at all. I meant that for the purposes of this conversation, those items were not things that I considered when making my choice to leave. Those things are important and play an overall part in my life, but they weren't things that made me think the cult was a cult, or made me think that I should leave the JWs.

15

Former Elder insights on recent Child Abuse Cases & changes in the Org

by cha ching in

this former elder, was briefly featured on pbs segment about child abuse among jehovah's witnesses.

in this youtube interview, he is asked about some of his experiences in the org from 1971 to the present.. at about 16:10 he starts telling his story about his involvement with trey bundy, and how he got to know jonathan kendrick, from the candace conti case.. for some reason, this video is starting 15 minutes in, and i can't get the link to start at zero.... you can always rewind ;-).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqemkxhtj4w.

jwundubbed

@cha ching,

Thank you!!!