Posts by jwundubbed

37

"Do you believe that the 'faithful slave' is God's channel of communication?"

by The Fall Guy in

if a jw had the nerve to ask me this question, i'd say to them, "you go first.

using only scriptural proof, show me why you believe that the wtbts/ccojw is god's choice and i'll tell you if i agree with your scriptural reasoning.".

wait for the silence and the rabbit in the headlights moment.. i searched on the wt cd rom for references of "channel of communication.".

jwundubbed

No. I can speak directly to God through prayer. Why go through a middle man. Why would God even need a middle man?

33

WT Teaching That You Can't Leave Behind

by jhine in

after posting on another thread it became apparent to me that it can be difficult for some ex jws to totally shake off all wt teaching , even after leaving the org.

do you still feel guilty going into a church for a wedding or a funeral .

can you bring yourself to celebrate birthdays or christmas .

jwundubbed

Do you still feel guilty going into a church for a wedding or a funeral .

I work in a church now. I provide childcare during services. It isn't 'my' church. Why would I feel guilty going into a church? When I was a JW, I didn't feel guilty if I tried. I felt scared. I don't feel scared anymore either. It's just another building, like any other.

Can you bring yourself to celebrate birthdays or Christmas .

I don't celebrate Christmas because I'm not a Christian. I celebrate whatever I want to in the ways that I want to. There is no 'bringing myself to it'. But I do things with intention now, and not just to fit social norms. I'm forming my own traditions. I haven't decided what that is for birthdays. I celebrate Winter solstice when I can by drumming in the sun. I celebrate Halloween in my own way. I add something when I want to add it and it is all about me and what I want to do with my life. My ex-life as a JW isn't a part of it.

Would you hesitate to accept a blood transfusion if you needed one ?

Yes. Because that is a big decision. I don't take any big decisions lightly. I don't take any medical procedures lightly. It's my life on the line. I give blood when I can and I don't feel that there is a moral implication in the mix.

Does the indoctrination that you received still work to put a barrier between you and the rest of society in the way it was intended to when you were "in " ?

The indoctrination wasn't the only thing that put a barrier between myself and the rest of society. There were a number of other things operating at the same time that are still in play. The indoctrination told me to hold myself apart for my own safety and so that I would be saved. I don't believe either of those things to be true anymore, so no. It isn't the teachings from my childhood that set me apart from any society.

I've been out about 25 years. It took me at least half of that to overcome the indoctrination. If I wanted to conform to society the way that I conformed to the religion then I could be well into a new 'emotional in' than I am now. I don't want to conform to a society. I want to be me and find my way.

Black pudding... ew. To each their own. But I don't like rare steak either. It's a geographical thing. People from east coast USA recognize that a steak can be juicy and tasty and have no pink to it. I don't do rare steak, I don't do sushi (more of a texture thing), and I have no desire to ever try black pudding... or haggis.. or oysters... or a lot of other foods that are gross to me. It has nothing to do with an aversion to blood stemming from my childhood indoctrination.

38

Do You Have A Negative Outlook Because You Were Once A JW?

by minimus in

jw
friends

it could be argued that exjws have issues in life simply because they were jehovah’s witnesses at a point in their lives.

.

do you think you or we are fairly normal considering we were jehovah’s witnesses or do you think we have a lot of baggage because we are a bit messed up ( even if we don’t even know it)?.

jwundubbed

Do you have a negative outlook because you were a JW?

No. How you look at the world isn't determined by your experiences. It has a lot more to do with your personality. I'm a generally positive person and I'm an optimist. I'm also a realist. When I have a negative outlook it is usually because of current situations compiled on top of past experiences. The opposite is just as true. When my outlook is positive it is because my current situation is good and I remember how crappy life can be from my past.

It could be argued that exjws have issues in life simply because they were Jehovah’s Witnesses at a point in their lives. Do you think you or we are fairly normal considering we were Jehovah’s Witnesses or do you think we have a lot of baggage because we are a bit messed up ( even if we don’t even know it)?

You have several different points of conversation here. They aren't all one-in-the-same argument.

Yes. We all have issues simply because we were JWs. Just like other people all have issues simply because of whatever religion they were raised in, or whatever abuse they experienced, or whatever other situation they experienced. Living means having issues of some kind. Whether or not those issues are a harmful presence in people's lives has a lot of variables and isn't just an automatic symptom of having whatever experiences one has. It depends on what kind of person you are and how you deal with those issues. It depends on how much time you spent being a JW and what your experiences were with the JWs. Some people had it easier and some people had it a lot harder. People who are born-in wil have different issues from people who joined up.

Are we fairly normal? I think we are more normal than we think we are but not as normal as we'd like to believe. We were led to believe that we were the chosen ones and that everyone on the outside is watching us. Neither of those things is true. People outside the JWs are oblivious to them. If people think of JWs, they think they are weird enough to joke about but not dangerous or special enough to pay any real attention to. If we don't stand out, then there must be some normalcy to us. But I also think that we camouflage ourselves well. We learn early how to blend in and conform. That means that the things that aren't normal about us are things we can hide. It is how we think and perceive the world around us that isn't normal. It is how we relate to other people and what definitions we have for emotions that aren't normal. At one point in time every one of us thought that shunning people was a normal thing to do. Many people thought it was loving. That definitely is not normal, but it is easy to hide. Those are the kinds of things that we think we are normal about when we aren't.

I think we are a lot more messed up than we think. Someone who was only in for a short period of time might be exempt from this idea. I fully left physically and emotionally sometime between the ages of 18-22. I was a born-in. I was raised in the religion and I had severe PTSD when I left. I was actually diagnosed with 'extreme PTSD'. I spent the next 20 years recovering. I figured out a lot of crap. I thought that overcoming the teachings and recovering from the PTSD was all I needed. But there was a conversation here on this site in the last 2 years that made me realize that I was wrong and I have a lot more work to do.

Someone in that conversation made me realize that I'm an abusive person. I don't want to be. I have never had the intention to be abusive. Heck, I'm a victim here! But a lot of victims of emotional abuse also become abusers. It is how we learn to navigate and survive the abuse. We were taught that love-bombing and shunning are equally loving when neither are actually good. Healthy love is good. Bombarding someone with love to manipulate and control them is not good. Putting conditions on love is not good. We were taught that our misery was happiness. And we believed this stuff. I did. I might not have had a good foundation and wasn't a true believer of the doctrine but I believed everything else. I never shunned anyone who disagreed with my religious beliefs. I didn't think that was right. But I cut myself off from people that I felt were harmful to me. They didn't get a choice. And I can't honestly say that they ever saw that coming. That is abusive behavior. I can see it now, years later and looking at it objectively. I still have those impulses. I've learned to communicate better. But I'm still very reactionary and my reactions tend to be hard liners and abusive. I still have a lot to work on.

It wasn't easy leaving the cult. It was so damn hard. It was crazy hard coming to terms with all the things that were wrong. I don't like being wrong. It was hard to recognize and acknowledge that my way of thinking was wrong. The hardest part for me wasn't what the cult did to me but accepting that I had to change as a person. And all of that was before I realized that I am what I was taught to be, an abusive person. Facing myself as an abuser and an abusive person is the hardest part for me. I don't like to think of myself in that kind of negativity. It means that working on it will go faster because I'm super motivated not to be an abusive person. But acknowledging that I'm not the kind of person that would be a chosen special person deserving of attention is hard. I don't know many people who have left the cult and have been willing to confront that part of themselves. My hope is that people do it quietly. I don't mean that they shouldn't share their experience. I mean that, as hard as it is to acknowledge it to myself, it is that much harder to acknowledge it to other people. So, my hope is that people who can't share that experience at least explore it in themselves.

So, yes, I think we are messed up even if we don't know it.

4

Maybe Witnesses are the "world"

by nowawake14 in

jw
friends

i just realized that maybe witnesses are the world, because of all the hypocrisy ive seen with my own eyes.

alot of the jw kids (not all) ive been around acted "worldier" than the average person.

it sucked.

jwundubbed

Maybe the JWs have always been part of the world. After all the only difference between them and the rest of the world is how they see themselves. Everyone else considers them part of the whole world.

4

What's the best way to...

by jwundubbed in

i am working on writing my autobiography.

i want to be able to use academic research as well as personal experience in my book.

and i would like to look at resources that members here would recommend.

jwundubbed

@Tenacious, Thank you so much! That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

@Sigfrid Mallozzi, I do not have formal training in psychology and I don't want to sound like I do. But I did learn a lot about the mechanisms of cults and the mechanisms of survival and recovery through my journey in leaving. At some point I left all of that behind. At the time I needed the distance. But that was a big part of my journey, so I'm looking to find that information again to use in describing my journey, through my own eyes, but also using language that is from a few different perspectives than my own. The various perspectives and the associated language played a bit part in my recovery. Thanks so much for your advice. I will have to see if I can still log into my college search engines as well. That is a great idea!

@apostatethunder, Yes. I do want to do some of that as well.

4

What's the best way to...

by jwundubbed in

i am working on writing my autobiography.

i want to be able to use academic research as well as personal experience in my book.

and i would like to look at resources that members here would recommend.

jwundubbed

I am working on writing my autobiography. I want to be able to use academic research as well as personal experience in my book. And I would like to look at resources that members here would recommend. I know that starting a new topic is a great way to go, but then what subject area should I put it in? Any other recommendations for looking up this question in the search field?

Using this site, what is the best way to find resources on leaving or recovering from a cult from a mental health point of view? Using psychology and understanding the mechanisms of how a cult operates, then using the same language of therapists and counselors to discuss and explain how a person recovers from having been in a cult. This is what I'm looking for. This site is a mountain of wealth of information on personal points of view. But I know I've read posts from people who look at the mechanisms of cults and have discussed some of the things they learned through therapy and etc.

18

I’m so sad . . .

by HappyBlessedFree in

so my husband asked me if i’m going to the memorial.

i said “no”.. he asked would it be okay if i take the kids.

“i would prefer that you didn’t”.. why can’t he see the lies!

jwundubbed

My dad had questions pretty early on after joining up. But he stayed in and raised his kids in it. I know that he and others either had questions or their cognitive dissonance wasn't fully intact because I remember get-togethers where he and my mom, and the parents of two other families would talk about what they disagreed with and what didn't make sense. It was a lot like the conversations here on this site. I know he had questions of his own because I remember him learning Greek so that he could read the Greek scriptures trying to translate them himself. I remember him sitting in the KH with a Greek scriptures bible studying it hard while the meeting went on.

Having overheard those conversations when i was a kid, actually helped me when I left. There was logic and reasoning in those conversations. Those conversations made my own questions feel less stupid. Those conversations helped me use my own logic and reasoning.

What I don't understand to this day, is why my dad had questions and didn't share them with us. He has a lot of guilt now for raising us kids to be JWs. And in my mind, I feel that is a reasonable feeling for him to have. He had the questions but he never gave us the tools he had. He joined up. He had a huge frame of reference that us kids were never privy to. He could have shared that with us.

I mean, if you really want your kids to make up their own minds then you have to give them all the tools. Not just 'the truth'. You need to help them learn how to think critically, logically, and with reason. You need to show them how important context is. You need to give them a frame of reference. What my Dad did right was that he made us kids look up and write a report on all the religions we didn't celebrate. He made us use resources outside of the JW books. So we learned the truth about the holidays and where they came from. Then we talked about the JW beliefs for not celebrating... but we ended up agreeing that we shouldn't be celebrating pagan celebrations because we aren't pagan. We didn't agree to not celebrate because we were JWs. That is critical thinking and it means we held the same practices as the JWs, but we had logic and reasoning that works behind our actions. That was pretty smart of our dad.

So, why not let them go to the memorial and then have a talk about what happened, why, what it means, etc. Give them crticial thinking choices now. Really offer your kids ideas and options. Your kids aren't stupid. And they aren't too young to talk about anything if those things are discussed with knowledge.

I grew up hearing about incest, rape, masturabation, and etc. and it was inappropriate because it was all taken out of context, some of it was abiguous while other parts were graphically clear, and none of it had any real logic or reasoning. I remember the bible story book about Dinah. She layed down with a man and then a lot of people were murdered. If anyone had ever said, no that isn't what happened. That man forced her to have sex with him. He hurt her. But their laws said that everything was okay because he married her. She was still hurt and her brothers were angry. That is all very understandable. There is logic and understanding in that story. It never made sense to me the way the JW presented it. And even worse it made me feel even more scared of normal choices because all that girl did was lie down next to someone.

If it were me... I would (if I were emotionally capable) I would go with my children. And then I would give them the tools to see it for what it is. I would help them. I would allow them to have good or bad feelings about it. But I would discuss everything they saw and why. And then I would take them to midnight mass or another Catholic ceremony where the members all get up and partake. And I would discuss that and how it is different and why it happens. And then I would see if there were any other religions that have any similar ceremonies and see if I could have my children attend. And we would talk and discuss afterwards each time. I would give my children a frame of reference of their own, because I don't have a frame of reference myself. If you can't attend other ceremonies then you can certainly look them up and learn and discuss them. Even if your husband is there, the same way my mother was there, you can have these discussions. Knowledge is power. Teaching your children about other religions isn't wrong in the JWs. You can give them critical thinking skills even if your husband is telling them what to think. You can also teach your kids to play chess or any game of logic. You can discuss anything with your kids using logic and critical thinking and it will help them fight the cognitive dissonance.

You can't make other people see what they don't want to see. But you can give your children options and tools and you can help them to be critical thinkers. Critical thinking is always a first step in leaving the cult because the cult doesn't make any real sense. Both of my parents taught myself and my siblings to be critical thinkers. Three of us left the cult. One stayed in because she can pretend to live in her perfect world that she controls. You can't make people see what they don't want to see.

18

How many would leave the organization right now if the shunning rule was removed?

by HiddenPimo in

dream scenario: everyone is made aware of all the wrongs, the false prophecies / csa problem / double standards - .

and they would not shun, how many would jump ship?.

my parents are fully aware of the sins of the org.

jwundubbed

and they would not shun, how many would jump ship?

If they stopped shunning, how many that have left would return?

I wouldn't.

And to be honest, I wouldn't suddenly start talking to the people who shunned me. There is something wrong with their moral compass. I have never shunned anyone in my life. I have set and kept boundaries. But I have never cut anyone off and treated them like they were dead because they didn't comply with my opinions or beliefs. I have never cut anyone off and treated them like they were dead because of any rumored difference in beliefs. People who do that aren't healthy people. In fact, they are so unhealthy that they infect other people with their mental disease. They harm people all by themselves and just having their doctrine altered won't change how unhealthy, harmful, and abusive they are. They have to put in the time and the effort to make those changes themselves, just like all of us have had or do have to do. Then, they also need to make amends and apologize for their actions. They have to hold themselves accountable for their choices and their actions. I don't know about anyone else, but in my experience the people who shun aren't people who hold themselves accountable for their choice in that matter.

17

"I don't want to hear any negative comments about the truth"

by days of future passed in

today the "anointed" sister that drops off tracts at my house, did a little i'll just stop by and show her a website about furniture and then offer the memorial tract visit.. her exhusband is a jw that did terrible things to her by taking property, didn't want to pay adequate child support and had the elders on his side.

she was telling me all about how, because he felt so guilty, now he had intestinal problems.

eventually the conversation ended and she offered the memorial tract to me.. "did you get an invitation?

jwundubbed

Are there any truths that have zero negative points?

I think you should listen to her. She told you she doesn't want to hear anything negative about her truth. So, why keep pushing? Basically she told you that she wants to bury her head in the sand. If it were me, I would make her a deal. I wouldn't tell her anything negative about the truth and she would stop talking about it completely,. stop inviting me to join it. I like truths that are complex. I like knowing all the pros and cons and making up my own mind on something. Having made up my mind, I would ask her to respect my choice and I would respect hers in return.

18

How many would leave the organization right now if the shunning rule was removed?

by HiddenPimo in

dream scenario: everyone is made aware of all the wrongs, the false prophecies / csa problem / double standards - .

and they would not shun, how many would jump ship?.

my parents are fully aware of the sins of the org.

jwundubbed

Everyone against the 'no blood' rule. Everyone who realizes that the entire foundation of doctrine is utter and complete nonsense. Everyone who recognizes bigotry and feels it is wrong. Everyone who watched the Sophia videos taking money from children and associating homosexuals with bombs on planes. Everyone who is left in the cold when the GB closes and sells their KHs without any concern for them. Everyone effected by all the pedophiles that the organization is protecting. In essence all the same people who do and have always left for reasons other than emotional blackmail.

People have always stayed despite all the arguments against the JWs. People have always left when they felt compelled to do so for a variety of different reasons. There are so many variables that make those decisions that simplifying the choice, to stay or leave, down to one or two reasons is naive.