schnell

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Posts by schnell

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  12

  It's weird to look back at old family stories about our beliefs.

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my parents had a story that the first time my dad ever met my mom's father, he opened the door and immediately asked dad, "what are you gonna do if my grandson needs a blood transfusion?!".

  grampa was a ww2 vet, an airplane mechanic, a methodist and freemason.

  he and my grandmother were pictured all my life as these ogres who opposed my mother's jw conversion and her marriage to my father.

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  schnell

  @s&r Oh you know I know the answer. I will move heaven and earth to get my daughter the help she needs.
• 
  27

  the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

  if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

  two thirds of heaven, right?

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  schnell

  @BOC these are the same people who would say that Adam lived because Jesus believed in him, and here they are speaking about logic and saying a direct quote is not evidence. I love how God becomes a wildcard that can solve anything too. That's fitting.

  The simpler explanation, of course, is that the book of Jude directly quotes the book of Enoch, and that is not to say that either of them were written by their ostensible authors.

  Rejecting Enoch also gives them an ability to cherry pick what they like from it without ever saying where they got it.
• 
  12

  It's weird to look back at old family stories about our beliefs.

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my parents had a story that the first time my dad ever met my mom's father, he opened the door and immediately asked dad, "what are you gonna do if my grandson needs a blood transfusion?!".

  grampa was a ww2 vet, an airplane mechanic, a methodist and freemason.

  he and my grandmother were pictured all my life as these ogres who opposed my mother's jw conversion and her marriage to my father.

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  schnell

  Thank you, scratchme1010. That does help.
• 
  27

  the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

  if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

  two thirds of heaven, right?

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• 

  schnell

  I've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called Nephilim.

  I've heard all my adult life about the Book of Enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.

  So tonight I was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the Book of Jude directly quotes from the Book of Enoch.

  If Jude quotes from Enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical? If you consider Jude canonical, then Enoch should be too.

  Hey, how many fallen angels were there again? Two thirds of heaven, right? Consider 1 Enoch 7:2-7.

  2And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.

  3Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; 4And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.

  5But they answered him and said; We all swear; 6And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.

  7Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.
  

  200 angels. 200... And that's two thirds of all heaven. So there are 300 total angels, if we're to take this literally and seriously. Hardly even a myriad. (Edit: Or was it a third of all the angels? Mea culpa.)

  I love how they made a sex pact like this is an American Pie movie, but they say it like they're in a stuffy business meeting. Nice touch.

  Hey, it was Satan who led them, right? He had another name but we never know what it is, right? Did any others have names too? 1 Enoch 7:9.

  9These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.)
  

  Hey, how tall were those Nephilim anyway? I've always heard they couldn't have been THAT tall, maybe 9 or 10 feet. Watchtower artwork has certainly depicted them that way in my lifetime. 1 Enoch 7:11-12.

  11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, 12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
  

  300 cubits. The age old question is what the hell is a cubit, and the answer that matters is "about 18 inches".

  300 * 18 = 5400

  5400 / 12 = 450

  They were 450 feet tall?! Were there magic beans and castles in the sky, too?

  Michael is also one of the archangels in the Book of Enoch. One of them, though the Watchtower claims he is the only one and identifies him as Jesus. Is he, say, the leader of the archangels? Nope. The book of Enoch explicitly identifies Samyaza as the leader of the Watchers, but does not apparently do the same for Michael. Is he ever listed first? Nope. Is he the one that binds Azazel? Nope. 1 Enoch 10:6-15.

  6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.

  9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire. 10Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it. 11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring. 12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

  13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs. 14They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

  15To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.
  

  So, this is silly, isn't it? If you accept Jude in the canon, you must also accept Enoch, and then revel in the magic and high fantasy therein.

  If you then don't accept Jude or Enoch, then what you have to realize is that these are books, by people, and they are open to study and criticism.
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  40

  All About The Words We Used

  by dubstepped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the time since i've left the borg behind i've had a few things hit me as to how words were used.

  i'm wondering if anyone else has some similar examples, but here are some things that have made me think:.

  watchtower - my whole life i saw this as a thing of protection from outside evil forces, and then when i left someone pointed out "isn't that what they used to keep people in prison".

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  schnell

  @Village Idiot, I told a co-worker they call it "going out in service". He laughed.
• 
  24

  Scriptures rarely mentioned

  by dothemath in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  a couple of examples of scriptures hardly ever quoted is 1 tim.

  2:12- "i do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence".

  or verse 11- "let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness.".

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  schnell

  They like to reference Jude sometimes, which references the Book of Enoch.

  Edit: It occurs to me that they don't often reference that passage though. So here it is, Jude 1:14-15:

  14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
  

  Edit 2: To compare, here is 1 Enoch 2:1.

  1Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.
  

  It strikes me now that they equate Jesus with Michael and call him the only archangel, completely ignoring the other 6 mentioned in the Book of Enoch. It's not as if they aren't aware of the contents of Enoch, so it's clear that they are being selective.
• 
  40

  All About The Words We Used

  by dubstepped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the time since i've left the borg behind i've had a few things hit me as to how words were used.

  i'm wondering if anyone else has some similar examples, but here are some things that have made me think:.

  watchtower - my whole life i saw this as a thing of protection from outside evil forces, and then when i left someone pointed out "isn't that what they used to keep people in prison".

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  schnell

  @breakfast of champions, I reasoned with my mom on that one, got a laugh out of her. For an organization as homophobic as the WTS, as well as misogynistic about women in positions of authority (thus asserting that the GB will always be a bunch of guys), this "wife-like/mother" idea is just fucking bizarre. You could reason that women can be anointed and thus be part of it, but then they identified the FDS as the GB. If you reason that genders are neutral in heaven, why are women not allowed in positions of authority?

  Just weird, all around weird.
• 
  40

  All About The Words We Used

  by dubstepped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the time since i've left the borg behind i've had a few things hit me as to how words were used.

  i'm wondering if anyone else has some similar examples, but here are some things that have made me think:.

  watchtower - my whole life i saw this as a thing of protection from outside evil forces, and then when i left someone pointed out "isn't that what they used to keep people in prison".

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• 

  schnell

  Worldly. Wes Craven was interviewed on NPR years ago and talked about his upbringing in a fundamentalist sect. They used the term "worldly" in the same xenophobic sense as JWs, and Craven said how common he found that to be among such groups.

  When his interview was replayed (I think it was on Fresh Air) recently, I came home and talked about it with my wife. That way of seeing this us-and-them mentality in the context of another cult-like group made me stop and think about it.

  His thoughts on depicting violence were interesting as well.
• 
  12

  It's weird to look back at old family stories about our beliefs.

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my parents had a story that the first time my dad ever met my mom's father, he opened the door and immediately asked dad, "what are you gonna do if my grandson needs a blood transfusion?!".

  grampa was a ww2 vet, an airplane mechanic, a methodist and freemason.

  he and my grandmother were pictured all my life as these ogres who opposed my mother's jw conversion and her marriage to my father.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  schnell

  @tiki I am awake and faded after nearly 5 years of marriage. My lovely wife hangs onto this or that.

  As JWdaughter said, that's something I would want agreement upon should it ever arise, not that I hope it does. It is most certainly not a mundane decision.
• 
  5

  Jesus: Preaching in the 21st century

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ''i liked it better 2000 years when i preached in synagogues,in the fields,by the sea,in the temples,on mountaintops and valleys.now,i've been reduced to making small talk and handing out leaflets to our summer convention titled,''remain loyal to jehovah.''.

  ''this stupid convention is 80 miles away,3 full days in the middle of summer,bagging your own lunch,paying for hotel and food,and ''making sure you do not reserve seats.''.

  '' i hope no one answers the door.''.

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  schnell

  I like how Jesus looks sick to his stomach as he faintly knocks on that door.