Posts by schnell

61

Is this a normal JW practice? Warning, this will be a bit graphic.

by Sequoia in

this post may be disturbing and i apologize, but i'm just trying to find out if this is a practice the jw teaches.

i was taken advantage of by a guy claiming to be a jw preacher.

he took me to his house supposedly so i could give his daughter piano lessons, and then he basically forced himself on me while telling me he was in love with me and wanted to marry me.

schnell

o_O

If this is genuine, call the police. Geez.

27

the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

by schnell in

jw
friends

i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

two thirds of heaven, right?

schnell

@David_Jay, it looks like your reply was swallowed up by formatting issues, so I'll (somewhat ironically) repeat it. :P Always good to hear from you on this!

"Canonicity" was a response to the challenge of Marcionism, and understanding a bit about that explains why certain books did not end up in the Christian canon.

Marcion of Sinope was a bishop who, influenced by Gnosticism, became a heretic. Like the Gnostics, Marcion taught that salvation was possible only through gaining special "gnosis," or knowledge. Holy writ (religious texts) from various cults were often believed to have the ultimate form of revelation hidden in their words, but they could only be understood by those "chosen" to understand them.

Marcion adapted Gnostic belief into his form of Christianity. He rejected the God of Abraham in favor of Jesus (in the primitive Church it has already been decided that Jesus was some sort of epiphany of the God of Abraham, an "incarnation" of the Shekinah or "Light" of God [see John 1:4-9]). Marcion claimed that Jesus was not the YHVH but a superior and kinder god, and that Paul was his primary apostle. Marcion also taught that though only "chosen ones" had the ability to understand the "hidden knowledge" found in holy writ, this "gnosis" could be disseminated by the chosen to those who joined them.

As for "holy writ" Marcion made a "rule" (in Greek, KANON) that only select letters of the apostle Paul were true, and the gospel of Luke (with all Jewish references edited out). Marcionism was born and attracted many followers.

In response, the Church (which up till that time believed that the Hebrew Scriptures were the only form of holy writ inspired of God) responded by excommunicating Marcion. But the genie had been let out of the bottle, so to speak, never to get back in. Were the books of Luke and some of Paul’s letters inspired like the Hebrew Scriptures?

Marcion got his idea about these books because early Christian worship services were liturgical, actually imitations of Jewish synagogue services which read the Torah and the other holy books on a schedule much like Jews do today (and Christians that follow the Revised Common Lectionary based on the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar). After reading from the scheduled Tanakh readings, the Christians would add brief portions from one of the gospels or epistles that “interpreted” the Old Testament reading. Marcion got his “rule” of books from these additional Christian readings.

The leaders of the Church began to investigate as to whether any of their books were inspired. To do so they set their own “rule,” that it basically had to be apostolic in nature or written under the auspices of the same. The books had to be those commonly read in liturgical services across the world. It would take 200 years after Marcion before the Church had the New Testament “rule” or “canon” settled and the issue closed.

The books were not chosen by popularity or merely because they were quoted by other authors. For instance, Paul quotes from Greek poetry in Acts but this doesn’t mean that the writings of the Greeks is inspired. (Acts 17:28) Therefore just because there is a quote from a book like Enoch does not mean that it is inspired. Also, it appears Luke was added to prove Marcion wrong. Luke’s gospel is not apostolic, but it is very thorough, and it follows the same sources of Matthew and Mark (Mark wrote under the auspice of Peter, or so the understanding has been). There are also more letters from Paul than any other apostle, though he was not one of the original twelve and even history testifies that Petrine authority was recognized. This choices may have been to counter Marcionism.

27

the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

by schnell in

jw
friends

i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

two thirds of heaven, right?

schnell

@Blondie I bought an e-book version for $0.99 on Google Play Books. There are free scans online as well, and I used the Wikipedia entry to navigate around and find what's interesting.

If Jude 14 and 15 quote a common source, what is the source? Here is 1 Enoch 2:1.

Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

Compare to Jude 14 and 15. Forgiving translation, it is a direct quote.

I have a very indoctrinated JW friend who said the Book of Enoch and/or Book of Barnabas is the source of the idea behind 1975 as well, that the end would come 6000 years after Adam's creation. I will look into that, but can anyone validate this?

27

"Don't listen to apostates!!"

by Schnufti in

next time a jw says that to me, i will ask him to read the following from "what does the bible really teach":.

watchtower itself uses this illustration.

so why is it that they throw apostates out of the congregation?.

schnell

My favorite is when they say something like this:

"If I am on the road, I want only the right directions. I don't want all the other directions or a big long debate about which way to go. I just want to know the right way to get there."

The assumption, of course, is that they can trust the directions they are being given. Allowing no discussion of alternative routes, they disregard just how the land is actually laid out and how these streets really work. The end result is that this allegory becomes a straw man.

I'm a truck driver, I think about traffic a lot. :P

12

It's weird to look back at old family stories about our beliefs.

by schnell in

jw
friends

my parents had a story that the first time my dad ever met my mom's father, he opened the door and immediately asked dad, "what are you gonna do if my grandson needs a blood transfusion?!".

grampa was a ww2 vet, an airplane mechanic, a methodist and freemason.

he and my grandmother were pictured all my life as these ogres who opposed my mother's jw conversion and her marriage to my father.

schnell

@s&r Oh you know I know the answer. I will move heaven and earth to get my daughter the help she needs.

27

the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

by schnell in

jw
friends

i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

two thirds of heaven, right?

schnell

@BOC these are the same people who would say that Adam lived because Jesus believed in him, and here they are speaking about logic and saying a direct quote is not evidence. I love how God becomes a wildcard that can solve anything too. That's fitting.

The simpler explanation, of course, is that the book of Jude directly quotes the book of Enoch, and that is not to say that either of them were written by their ostensible authors.

Rejecting Enoch also gives them an ability to cherry pick what they like from it without ever saying where they got it.

12

It's weird to look back at old family stories about our beliefs.

by schnell in

jw
friends

my parents had a story that the first time my dad ever met my mom's father, he opened the door and immediately asked dad, "what are you gonna do if my grandson needs a blood transfusion?!".

grampa was a ww2 vet, an airplane mechanic, a methodist and freemason.

he and my grandmother were pictured all my life as these ogres who opposed my mother's jw conversion and her marriage to my father.

schnell

Thank you, scratchme1010. That does help.

27

the Book of Enoch and the Nephilim

by schnell in

jw
friends

i've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called nephilim.. i've heard all my adult life about the book of enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.. so tonight i was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the book of jude directly quotes from the book of enoch.. if jude quotes from enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical?

if you consider jude canonical, then enoch should be too.. hey, how many fallen angels were there again?

two thirds of heaven, right?

schnell

I've heard all my cognizant life that angels from heaven looked upon the daughters of men, took wives, and their wives bore giants called Nephilim.

I've heard all my adult life about the Book of Enoch and why it's apocryphal and to be avoided.

So tonight I was curious enough to download an e-book and have a look, since dothemath had the thread about rarely used scriptures and the Book of Jude directly quotes from the Book of Enoch.

If Jude quotes from Enoch, shouldn't both or neither of them be canonical? If you consider Jude canonical, then Enoch should be too.

Hey, how many fallen angels were there again? Two thirds of heaven, right? Consider 1 Enoch 7:2-7.

2And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.
3Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; 4And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
5But they answered him and said; We all swear; 6And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
7Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.

200 angels. 200... And that's two thirds of all heaven. So there are 300 total angels, if we're to take this literally and seriously. Hardly even a myriad. (Edit: Or was it a third of all the angels? Mea culpa.)

I love how they made a sex pact like this is an American Pie movie, but they say it like they're in a stuffy business meeting. Nice touch.

Hey, it was Satan who led them, right? He had another name but we never know what it is, right? Did any others have names too? 1 Enoch 7:9.

9These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.)

Hey, how tall were those Nephilim anyway? I've always heard they couldn't have been THAT tall, maybe 9 or 10 feet. Watchtower artwork has certainly depicted them that way in my lifetime. 1 Enoch 7:11-12.

11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, 12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;

300 cubits. The age old question is what the hell is a cubit, and the answer that matters is "about 18 inches".

300 * 18 = 5400

5400 / 12 = 450

They were 450 feet tall?! Were there magic beans and castles in the sky, too?

Michael is also one of the archangels in the Book of Enoch. One of them, though the Watchtower claims he is the only one and identifies him as Jesus. Is he, say, the leader of the archangels? Nope. The book of Enoch explicitly identifies Samyaza as the leader of the Watchers, but does not apparently do the same for Michael. Is he ever listed first? Nope. Is he the one that binds Azazel? Nope. 1 Enoch 10:6-15.

6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.
9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire. 10Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it. 11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring. 12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.
13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs. 14They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.
15To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.

So, this is silly, isn't it? If you accept Jude in the canon, you must also accept Enoch, and then revel in the magic and high fantasy therein.

If you then don't accept Jude or Enoch, then what you have to realize is that these are books, by people, and they are open to study and criticism.

40

All About The Words We Used

by dubstepped in

in the time since i've left the borg behind i've had a few things hit me as to how words were used.

i'm wondering if anyone else has some similar examples, but here are some things that have made me think:.

watchtower - my whole life i saw this as a thing of protection from outside evil forces, and then when i left someone pointed out "isn't that what they used to keep people in prison".

schnell

@Village Idiot, I told a co-worker they call it "going out in service". He laughed.

24

Scriptures rarely mentioned

by dothemath in

a couple of examples of scriptures hardly ever quoted is 1 tim.

2:12- "i do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence".

or verse 11- "let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness.".

schnell

They like to reference Jude sometimes, which references the Book of Enoch.

Edit: It occurs to me that they don't often reference that passage though. So here it is, Jude 1:14-15:

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Edit 2: To compare, here is 1 Enoch 2:1.

1Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

It strikes me now that they equate Jesus with Michael and call him the only archangel, completely ignoring the other 6 mentioned in the Book of Enoch. It's not as if they aren't aware of the contents of Enoch, so it's clear that they are being selective.