Posts by seedy3

7

Is USA a 'Christian Nation'?

by Ravyn in

jw
friends

this bears repeating since it is now hidden in the thread where i first posted it.. ravynall those christian presidents.

[portions of this were originally published in the american rationalist.].

george washington chopped down a cherry tree and would not tell a lie about it.

seedy3

On this subject here is an interesting column written by Willam Edelen:

FOUNDING PRESIDENTS NOT CHRISTIAN
by William Edelen
February 24, 2002
One of my favorite times of the year is the Presidents month of February. Why? Because it gives me an annual opportunity to make a dent in the historical and religious ignorance of the political and Christian knee jerk right wingers. They spend almost full time in perverting American history claiming that the bible and Christianity were at the foundation of this nation. What total hogwash. Once a year I get to bring a few undisputed facts to their attention.

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA, 1968, vol.2, p.420, quote:
"One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was the fact that NOT ONE of the first six presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists."

In Deism there is no personal God, only an impersonal "force" or "energy" or "natures God" or "providence". In Deism, the bible is nothing but literature, and bad literature at that. Jefferson and Paine both called it "a dunghill" Others of our founders used the same language. In Deism, Jesus was nothing more than a nomadic teacher. I will now let these men speak for themselves:

GEORGE WASHINGTON: "Being no bigot, I am disposed to humor Christian ministers and the church" Looking for servants, he said: "I will be happy to have atheists, Jews, Christians or Mohammedans." In 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said in a sermon: "Washington is no more than a Unitarian, if anything." Washington refused to take communion, looking upon it as superstition. He refused to ever kneel in church according to his wife and minister, James Abercrombie. The Treaty of Tripoli, under Washington, Article 11 begins: "As the government of the United States is NOT IN ANY SENSE founded on the Christian religion." This Treaty was ratified by the senate in 1797under Adams, without a SINGLE OBJECTION..

THOMAS JEFFERSON: Author of the Declaration of Independence. "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children since the introduction of Christianity have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. And to support roguery and error all over the earth."

JAMES MADISON: Author of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. "A just government instituted to perpetuate liberty, does not need the church or the clergy. During almost 15 centuries the legal establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been been its fruits? These are the fruits in all places: pride and indolence in the clergy...ignorance and servility in the laity...and in both clergy and laity superstition, bigotry and persecution." Madison passionately objected to state supported chaplains in Congress and the military, as well as the exemption of churches from taxation. And rightly so. They should be taxed.

JOHN ADAMS: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus has made a convenient cover for absurdity" Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli, which states that the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion. Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson, in a sermon of October 1831, summed up the religion of our founding presidents in these words: "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of Christianity."

ABRAHAM LINCOLN: Not a founding president but a giant who shared exactly the same religious views: quote: "Christianity is not my religion and the bible is not my book. I have never united myself in any church because I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian doctrine and dogma." Lincoln never joined any church and was never baptized, looking upon it as superstition. His wife said: "my husband is not a Christian, but is a spiritual man I think." The most magnificent Pulitzer-Prize biography of this giant is Carl Sandburg's "Abraham Lincoln." And as Sandburg put it: "His views were such as would place him entirely outside of Christianity."

Thomas Jefferson put in one succinct sentence what they all believed. "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by a supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." (letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823)

Why are these facts of American history not being taught in our High Schools? What forces are at work in our society to keep historical truth from our young people? We get all hot and sweaty about censoring movies and television. A far, far more lethal virus that is at work is the censorship of the religious views of our first six presidents, our Founding Fathers. Why is this not being taught? Why is your minister not telling you about it, assuming he is historically literate?

The genius Goethe said it best: "Nothing is more terrifying than...ignorance in action."

I am sure to point these facts out to the FUNDIES when they claim that the US is a christian nation.

Seedy

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

seedy3

Hooberus,

The accounts of the lives of these gods are very mythical, whereas the accounts given in the new Testament are written in the historical.

I misunderstood your point, and with that out look I can agree. Most religous writtings were not in book form, with the exception of the Book of the dead from egypt, but that book really didn't deal with historical data, it was more or less a rule book and what you do if something goes wrong type book. Most of the rest of the writings were in poetry and song, not in a "Story" or "Novel" form like the OT was.

Yes the gospels were not written by Paul, as well as the others you mentioned, that I fully agree with and I think most scholars as well do. But that does not keep it from being Paulien Christianity, most books of the bible (NT) were not discovered or I should say used until later in the 2nd century, with the exception of some of Paul's letters (the Gospel of Mark is also date to the later half of the first century circa 65-75ad). As peacefulpete said Paul and the other writers of the NT books did not quote from the Gospels. An interesting quote from the Sierra Reference Encyclopedia is as follows:

Jesus was not the founder of Christianity as we know it today. Most of theNew Testament doesn't even concern the historical Jesus while the main influence is the Apostle Paul and a Greek convert named John.
Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, he only claimed some strange vision and proceeded to paganize the teachings of Jesus (who preached an enlightened form of Judaism), until he created Pauline Christianity. Because there are no known writings from Jesus, the actual Apostles, or anyone that actually knew Him in the flesh (other then perhaps James), most of what He taught is lost forever.
The beginning of Christianity stands two figures: Jesus and Paul. Jesus is regarded by Christians as the founder of their religion, in that the events of his life comprise the foundation story of Christianity; but Paul is regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of time. The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching or influence of Paul, a Pharisee(?) who rejected his Pharisaic Judaism and converted to Christ. Paul would later be placed over his Jewish-Christian rivals by a Gnostic heretic named Marcion

Now many of the books atributed to even Paul are not by him, they were written by someone else and given his name. The only books that are a match to having been written by Paul are I Corinthians, Romans, II Corinthians, I Thessalonians, Galatians, Philemon, and Philippians.

Now the gospels...... they are another work of fraud, none of them were written by anyone that knew Jesus, The book of Luke is in acutallity a copy of the Gospel Of the Lord with some editing, the Gospel of truth was written by Marcion who was considered a heritic, but in actuality it appears he had a profound infulence on Christianity as well as Paul. His influence is still being debated however. here is a link to his gospel and a comaprison of the 2 gospels (Luke and Lord) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3827/Library.html

The Gospel of Mark is the ealries known, but some argue that Matthew was earlier. Mark has been shown to have been edited, the verses after chapter 16 verse 8, have been added and are not found in the earliest copies, so it really makes me wonder what else has been changed. Aside from that Mark never met Jesus.

Matthew really doen't show up on the scene until about the begining of the 3nd century, but there is a reference to it by Eusibeus speaking of Paipius in the early 2nd century refering to Matthew, but this is debated hotly and the Matthew paipius refers to is thought to be the Gospel of the Hebrews not the gospel we now know as Matthew.

John........ This quote sums it up best for most of the gospels:

"As with the synoptics, the real name of the author of John is unknown. Certain similarities between the gospel, letters and Apocalypse that now bear that name led the early Christians to imagine that they had been the work of a single author; and since the redactor of Apocalypse had called himself Ioannes, that name was attached to the unsigned works also. In fact, while the author of Apocalypse had been a Jew whose Greek (Koine) left a lot to be desired, the author of John was a native Greek whose handling of that language was skilled and erudite."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

John is also considered very anti-semitic in many circles, but that is another topic.

Seedy

57

God//Jesus and Quantum Uncertainty

by SYN in

another day, another serious post.

breaking form from my recent spate of humour, i've been doing a lot of thinking.

theological thinking, to be specific.

seedy3

I say we all get iron charioits and do what we want, cause god can't touch em

Seedy

12

Did I find the right Church?

by Sherwood in

found this on usenet and just had to pass it along.

sherwood.

investigating.

seedy3

I h ave never seen a website more honest then that one.......... How do I join!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR AN IDIOT, YOUR AN IDIOT

Yeppers, I agree with that statement for anyone thinking about joing any religion.

Seedy

14

Any Buddhists Here?

by Southland in

jw
friends

i was a jw from birth until after i got out of high school.

i've drifted away over the last 15 years or so.

lately i have found myself missing my sense of spirituality.

seedy3

From what little studying I have done on Buddism is that it is bassically agnostic, and does not subscribe to any particular Dieity, but does not have an objection if you or any member of the group does. The buddist is really to make you understand yourself and life as it is now, although it does subscribe to morality as a way to gain in the next life. Some sects of buddism beleive that we are all able to become Gods (not like the christian god of being almighty) at one point in our incarnations, but most of the sects feel the best incarnation is to be human, becasue it is too easy to get lazy or haughty if you reach the level of Godliness.

There are a few Buddist cults running around and should be avoided as they are not much better then the christian cults, they do exert control of their members and also their money and assets.

I suppose I am much like Farkel in the note of Buddism, I am not one, but do accept many of the ideals they have that I know about. But then again I also follow the Wiccan rule of "Do what ye will but harm none" I actualy like that rule, becasue in it as ong as what ever I do, if it does not harm you or anyone else, who should care what I do.

Seedy

57

God//Jesus and Quantum Uncertainty

by SYN in

another day, another serious post.

breaking form from my recent spate of humour, i've been doing a lot of thinking.

theological thinking, to be specific.

seedy3

I vote we put the GB in a steel box (of course with holes in it they have to breath), throw it in the ocean and see if they float.

Seedy

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

seedy3

The accounts of the lives of these gods are very mythical, whereas the accounts given in the new Testament are written in the historical.

The idea that "Those other Gods are myth and Jesus is historical" is very not true. There is no more historical evidence for Jesus then there is for the other "Man/Gods. During the fist half of the first century there was not one single solitary word written about the Jesus of the bible. Also during the last half of the 1st century BC to the first half of the 2nd century AD there were no less then 8 Jewish messiahs, actually I think 9 if you count the Jesus of the bible.

Even the early church fathers knew there was a profound simularity of the "Myths" to Jesus on the website mentioned earlier he uses quite a few quotes from Justin Martyr to show this here is a couple of the quotes on this particular topic.

"we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter"? {St. Justin Martyr, First Apology]

He went on to say that the only reason of the simularities is the demons set out to make it look like these other gods were infact the messiah, they read the scriptures and set up a fake messiah in the form of these other God/Men to fool mankind. So really the early christians did know that the simularities was profound.

A reading of the complete lives of these mythical characters (and not just certain parts) shows them to be as a whole very different from Jesus.

This is very true, much the same as a Volkswagon is different then a Rolls Royce. The point on the Website is not to show that Jesus is an exact copy, but just a new model of an old concept.

While the accounts of these myths are as a whole very different from the accounts of Jesus, it is claimed by some that there are parallels which indicate that certain aspects of the life of Christ were borrowed from these pagan sources

There is as much difference between Attis and Mithras and there is between Jesus and Mithras or Attis. Just becasue he is different does no make his story any less mythical.

The Christinaity that we see today is more or less a Paulien version, it was what was established by the Church of Rome blessed by Constintine, who made all other forms of christianity or pagan religions against the law and punisable by death. Roman Christianity didn't come to popularity becasue it was true, it came about becasue it was forced down the throuts of every man woman and child not in hiding.

Eventually all of the other forms of christianity was wiped out and their writings burned and the only thing left was Roman christianity, up until John Calvin and Martin Luther came on the scene. Then started the reformation period and we now have Protestants. But excpt for a few things Protestants still hold on to the same mythology as did the Romans, they just did it differently.

I guess the point really is, that the ancient "Myth" beleivers beleived that their God/Man was a true and real as you do that Jesus is true and real. The idea that Jesus is real becasue there is the bible is proposterious, The writings of the ancient pagans are lost becasue the early christion fathers had them burned and destroyed to get rid of the competition. The gospels wer not written by anyone that KNEW Jesus, that is virtually a proven fact. The only writings that are known to have existed prior to about 150ad were some of the letters that were wrote by Paul and his followers, nothing more. There is an arguement that mark may have been written in the 1st century, but if it had been it was not public knowlege as the 2nd century leaders never refer to it at all until after about 150ad.

You made the statement that you read "some" of that website, well start at the begining and go to near the end. it will take a bit of time but is well worth it. Itm ay not convince you that Jesus is a myth, but it will give you an idea as to why many of us do.

Seedy

10

Jehovah's Witnesses Deny They Are A Cult

by Kenneson in

in today's globe and mail, an article entitled "where cultists play" addresses the issue of cults, principally in quebec.

it takes a good look at the raelians and other cults of french origin.. speaking of france, it says that "the government has drawn up a list of 172 groups it considers to be cults; those deemed the most 'dangerous' are subject to special scrutiny.

the list, which attracted criticism from civil libertarians, includes jehovah's witnesses and seventh -day adventists.".

seedy3

Hmmmm, all of Christianity is a cult so what's the big deal??

27

Bible QUIZ! DoubleDogDare U!

by Ravyn in

http://www.ffrf.org/bquiz.html

i double dog dare you to take this quiz!.

i got 40 out of 50, but the average score for americans is 15!.

seedy3

I scored a 35 out of 50, not too bad for not studying the bible for about 20 years or more

38

God's Name?

by seeking_truth in

another question for everyone.

i have read through some of the threads, posts or whatever and even though there is a sense of disagreement over witnesses and the society, their way of handling the words of the bible.

i was curious to know if anyone does believe jehovah is his name?

seedy3

LISTEN PEOPLE!!!!! HIS NAME IS HANK AND HE WILL KICK THE S*** OUT OF YOU IF YOU DON'T GET IT RIGHT On the other hand if you get it right he will give youe a million bucks when you leave town. so don't screw it up for the rest of us OK????!!!!!

Seedy