aboveusonlysky

Joined

• started 9 topics
• posted 108 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by aboveusonlysky

• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  The following case is interesting

  Example case - R (Williamson and others) v Secretary of State for Education and Employment and others [2005]

  A group of parents and teachers tried unsuccessfully to use Article 9 to overturn the ban on corporal punishment of children in schools. They believed that part of the duty of education in the Christian context was for teachers to assume the parental role and administer physical punishment to misbehaving children. The House of Lords rejected the case because the parents’ rights under Article 9 were restricted by the need to protect children from the harmful effects that corporal punishment might cause – a punishment that involves deliberately inflicting physical violence.

  So if 'a punishment that involves deliberately inflicting physical violence' can be outlawed why not a punishment that deliberately inflicts emotional damage? This is no small area as it can be easily proven that religious shunning causes severe emotional problems and even suicide. Again I'm talking about the POLICY, not an individual's right to not invite a family member to tea.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  StephaneLaliberte
  

  again, to me, it is not the practice of shunning that should be illegal. it is the practice of organizing and enforcing it.

  I totally agree, article 9 of the human rights act says the following -
  
  Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.
  
  It would be a case of proving that the official policy requiring members to shun those who leave and speak out against the organization is an infringement of the above right, IMO it is, I also believe far more people would openly speak out against watchtower if their official shunning policy didn't exist, the difficulty would be proving it in court but I'm sure harder cases have been proven in the past.
  
  Take for example online bullying that includes coercion to ostracise, In America different states have different laws that are changing all the time.
  
  Also the argument that we should 'get over it' because there are bigger issues is just ridiculous, no matter what injustice happens to us there is always something worse that could of happened, a homosexual being fired because his company has homophobic policies is not as bad as his entire family shunning him because his religion has similar policies, but few would criticize if he sought compensation from his company so why not his religion? 40 years ago such a case would have no chance but laws change making such things possible.
  
  
  
  
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  'So what do they care then?
  A club they don't want to belong to doesn't want them as a member ...
  That's where this always ends up. "I want to leave - but how dare they say I can't be a member!".'

  Again harsh, it's often nothing to do with being a member and everything to do with losing your family because of shunning, COERCED shunning, get some empathy dude!
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  'I say "for some reason" because the only valid reason to persist with it is if you think they do represent god and it's really him setting the rules. In which case, why not obey them? If you think the rules are invalid and should not be obeyed then why do you want to go?'

  So are you saying that those that don't believe but still go to meetings or try to fade quietly purely to keep their family together or buy some time in trying to wake up family members are wrong to do so? If so that's extremely judgemental.

  You also argue all your points as if everything is a choice, haven't you heard of undue influence? If inciting a person or a crowd to commit an act of violence is a crime then what about inciting bullying by means of organizationally mandated shunning? It's nothing to do with forcing people to eat donuts or whatever your illustration meant.

  Richard Oliver - you still haven't answered my question as to whether you think scientology's disconnection policy is fair or not, you are free to express your pro-JW opinions on this forum (and rightly so) so do you think it's right that one of us would be immediately booted off JWtalk for saying anything negative about the org?
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  Richard Oliver once again you could not be more wrong. Consider the following statement -

  You might think bullying is worse than ostracism, but recent research suggests that being frozen out is actually more painful. From social exclusion on the playground to being ignored in the workplace, ostracism is among the most devastating experiences we can endure, deeply connected to our most fundamental human need to be recognized and accepted. Ostracism can reshape the human brain, and in extreme cases, even make a person want to go on a killing spree. Isn’t it time we knew more about it?

  http://www.alternet.org/culture/social-death-penalty-why-being-ostracized-hurts-even-more-bullying
  

  
  

  Even at my child's primary school they teach that ignoring someone is a cruel form of bullying, can I ask, do you think scientology's disconnection policy is cruel or fair?
  

  Regarding the announcement it's obvious it means shun or be shunned, there are loads of former jdubs that aren't shunned, but try having a friendship with someone who's been announced and you'll quickly be on the end of congregation discipline. The statement 'let him have it' could mean pass him the ball or stab him to death, one is innocent and the other is not. To say the announcement that someone is no longer a JW is merely a true statement is intellectually dishonest.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  Am I right in saying that in Bulgaria it's illegal for someone to be disfellowshipped for having a blood transfusion? So if that happens the disfellowshipped victim could successfully sue the organization and so could anyone who was disfellowshipped for associating with them, sure loads of people would still shun out of choice but the law would make the org think twice about announcing that person was no longer a JW.

  What if the same law was applied to anyone who spoke out against the org? after all it's part of the human rights agenda to have freeness of speech and choice of belief without negative consequence, so dfing an 'apostate' could lead to the org being sued.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  Criminal harassment statutes can often provide a basis for bringing charges in severe cases, and more serious criminal charges have been brought in cases where the offense has resulted in suicide or other tragic consequences.

  The above statement about cyber bullying is taken from

  http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/cyber-bullying.html

  Can you really defend a cyber bullying incident that ends in a tragic suicide by reasoning that nobody was forced to bully the victim? Or that that freeness of speech means there's nothing we can do about cyber bullying?

  Now apply the same principles to the shunning announcement that causes many individuals to shun without even knowing what the shunned person even did! Surely it can be proven that such ones are ostracizing purely because they are instructed to do so by an organization that encourages bullying.

  True, you can't force everybody to be your buddy, you probably can't force the org to change it's shunning policies in the same way you can't change their 2 witness rule, but you can sue the pants off them if you get the law on your side, anything that makes that happen is a good thing in my opinion.

  
  

  Outlaw I applaud your outrageousness once again!

  
  
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  Well put Giordano, I've often thought shunning is similar to past religious abuses like torture in that those that don't support the arrangement can be subjected to the same punishment, this is where WT have crossed a line that I feel with the right legislation could be actionable in court.

  Simon you make a great point but I think we're talking about different things. There's nothing I can do about those that have chose to shun me purely because I no longer hold the same beliefs I had in the past, on the other hand when I want to associate with df'd friends I have to do so I'm secret for fear of being subject to a judicial committee myself, all of this is printed organization procedure.

  Child abuse victims are rightly able to sue the org for large sums of money if organizational neglect can be proven in court, a big reason for the compensation being so high is the emotional trauma the victim has suffered, so what about the trauma caused by shunning? Could that not in some cases be actionable too? I'm fairly sure that if a similar thing went on in business rather than religion it would be actionable.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  I hear you, I'm not df'd but am currently being shunned by some family and friends, what I'm talking about is making the '..... is no longer a JW' announcement illegal or at least the shun or be shunned policy actionable by lawsuits.

  Let's face it, the only authority the org fears is being sued and a change to the law might make that possible, also the org having less power over apostates would help others to wake up too.
• 
  115

  Could a petition to make shunning illegal work?

  by aboveusonlysky in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we're currently watching leah remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to jw procedure.. i was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal?

  has such a thing been tried before?.

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following - .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  aboveusonlysky

  We're currently watching Leah Remini's series about scientology and the main thing she seems to focus on is the shunning policies of the scientology organization which let's face it are very similar to JW procedure.

  I Was wondering with all that's in the media recently about bullying could a petition be put together to get the goverment to consider making religiously mandated shunning illegal? Has such a thing been tried before?

  https://petition.parliament.uk/help says the following -

  How petitions work

  1. You create a petition. Only British citizens and UK residents can create or sign a petition.
  2. You get 5 people to support your petition. We’ll tell you how to do this when you’ve created your petition.
  3. We check your petition, then publish it. We only reject petitions that don’t meet the standards for petitions.
  4. The Petitions Committee reviews all petitions we publish. They select petitions of interest to find out more about the issues raised. They have the power to press for action from government or Parliament.
  5. At 10,000 signatures you get a response from the government.
  6. At 100,000 signatures your petition will be considered for a debate in Parliament.

  100,000 is a lot but with a website and some media attention it could be possible and maybe wouldn't need that many signatures anyway. Given that shunning for apostacy is often a blatant violation of the human rights agenda I've wondered how organizations like watchtower get away with their policies in the 21st century, ideas anyone?