Seeker

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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Seeker

  Earnest,

  Thank you for your response.

  By and large the Christian apologists argued that the Biblical flood was global. However, pseudo-Justin related that some say the water only inundated the inhabited parts of the earth. In answer to the argument that scripture records the water covered the highest mountains, he replies that perhaps only the valleys were occupied. (Quaestiones et responsiones ad orthodoxos,PG,VI,1282).

  Even flooding the known inhabited part of the earth would have required something beyond anything recorded in geology. As for the Bible meaning valleys when it says the highest mountains, I'm wondering what his reasoning was to allow such a switch in meaning. Do you know what he said about that?
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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  Seeker

  There may also be other reasons that God had Noah build an Ark to save him from the flood waters that were to come, rather than simply tell him to move to higher ground, and give him plenty of notice so he would have sufficient time to avoid the flood. The Bible tells us that "Noah was a preacher of righteousness." He probably continued urging the residents of his land to repent and accept God's provision for their salvation right up to the day it began to rain. (Gen.7:11-13) If Noah had relocated somewhere outside of the land that was to be flooded he would have been unable to offer his neighbors a way to escape God's coming judgment nearly as long as he did.

  Great. So 119 years, 11 months, and 3 1/2 weeks wasn't enough preaching. He needed that last day or two for return visits, huh. Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Besides, that would mean Noah was keeping the wicked from heading for higher ground too. Nasty trick.

  But since your argument was one against the seaworthiness of all wooden ships, I thought it was relevant to mention them. Especially since I believe they endured much more difficult conditions at sea than Noah's ark was subjected to. And besides, as I also pointed out, those wooden ships were designed by mere men. The Bible says God designed Noah's ark. I think God is capable of designing a wooden vessel of that size that could float in what were probably fairly calm waters for several months

  The seaworthiness of all wooden ships is clearly not in question. It is the particular design of the ark that was so stupid. If God designed it, He made a shape guaranteed to fail. And no, other ships did not have a harder time than the ark. If the flood was as cataclysmic as flood believers are forced to say it was (to make the mountains, freeze the arctic, destory civiliations), the ark would have been in for a heck of a ride. Lesser ships would have failed. The ark would have been in splinters in no time flat. It wasn't the later floating around for months that would have been hard. It was the cataclysm part.
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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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• 

  Seeker

  aChristian,

  Thank you again for responding to my question. To be honest, I'm not convinced. It sounds as if God caused Moses to write down an account that totally fooled believers for millenia until science came along and told them how it really was. That makes no sense.

  And if Noah had to go in the ark merely as a picture of what was to come, it means all the evil persons outside the ark could just head to higher ground and escape. After all, the Bible makes it clear that this wasn't some dam bursting and a rush of water came along destroying everything in its path (which would have included the ark as well), but a gradual rising of water thanks to steady rainfall for forty days. Well, if it was as the Bible said, the bad folks could just walk to safety. Truly the account becomes a meaningless symbolism.

  I choose Occam's razor: The account plainly says it was global in every aspect, thus the writer meant global, even though he was wrong.
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  6

  A little slice of life

  by Julie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as you all know life can be full of difficulties and heartbreaks.

  i have recently been through some minor (but nonetheless extremely irritating) difficulties and have also been dealing with the heart-ache of watching someone very dear to me reach the end of life.. with these things on my mind i was trying to go about my business, was putting away some laundry and happened to look out the window a couple of days ago.

  here in northern michigan it has been unseasonably warm lately so the kids have been outside enjoying it.

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  Seeker

  I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties, Julie, but glad to hear of your perspective on life. It's one of your traits I find most appealing.
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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Seeker

  aChristian,

  Thank you for answering my question. A follow-up question: Are there any records of Christians putting forth this argument in the centuries before science proved a global flood never happened, or were these arguments only used after this was shown?
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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

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  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Seeker

  I haven't been following these flood discussions too closely recently, but I've noticed a rise in the number of posts arguing that the Genesis account was only describing a local flood. I would agree that the geologic record only allows for this, not a global flood at all. But I'm curious to know how the Genesis account can be argued as a local event. What is the answer to someone who says, "But what would be the point of the Genesis account if it were local? There would be no need of an Ark, it wouldn't be true that God was going to kill all flesh, animals wouldn't have to be preserved. All a local flood would require is a warning for Noah to move to higher ground."

  Is there a brief answer to this, without posting pages of information or just giving me a link and saying, "read this"?
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  47

  Let's have a baby shower!!!

  by Julie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as most of you know one of our long time posters, "mommy"/wendy, is expecting a baby in the very near future.

  as some of you may not know (and i hope she doesn't plot my murder for discussing it) wendy is going through some real tough times.

  she could use a few things for the baby considering getting by with two other children is difficult enough!.

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  Seeker

  I'm not used to attending baby showers, but you fine ladies made me feel very much at home.
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  11

  Gosford Park

  by patio34 in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  this was a surprisingly good movie.

  but i couldn't understand some of the lines because of the british accent.

  it was witty, intriguing, mysterious, and excellent ending.. i think i'll rent it on video next year and turn on the closed captioning to get all the nuances.. i would give it 4 outta 4 stars.. pat

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  Seeker

  It's one of the best movies of the year, quite amusing, not morbid at all, and not really a murder mystery. It's about people, and the plot is mostly irrelevant. Great fun.
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  61

  John Walker

  by mike047 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the u.s. government is returning john walker to the states for trial.

  what do you consider an appropriate punishment for his mis-deeds?.

  i think, he should be[if found guilty]stipped of his citizenship and returned to somewhere in the mideast to spend the rest of his life,with no possibility to return to the u.s. for any reason.

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  Seeker

  Seeker, just to answer your question, most YOung people Johnnie's age don't travel around the world and live in other countires unless theri parents are very weathly. It is not cheap to live over sears unless there is an American money coming in to exchance at the higher local currenty rate.

  I don't know that I can agree with that. It seems routine for college-aged kids to spend time in Europse, and that's even more expesive. Living on the cheap is a college traiditon. And if he went to these Muslim countries, that dirt-cheap.

  I don't know about his parents. They might very well be too permissive. Not sure what that has to do with anything, to be honest, nor why so many people are mad at them. I think it's the old taking sides thing. People choose a side and then can't stand it when everyone doesn't agree with them. Right now, Bush has childishly said, "If you're not for us, you're against us," which set up a overly simplified choice. People waving the flag get very upset if someone disagrees with everything they say, for it underminds their simplified beliefs (we're good, they're bad). So someone like Walker comes along and they get as apoplectic as a fundy who was just told their idea of God is not as black-and-white as they think.

  In any case, I have no objection to the guilty being punished, and maybe Walker will be just that guilty. My whole point had to do with those who were calling for his torture and execution before they knew all the facts. I'm someone who feels you have to hear all sides of an issue before you can intelligently decide a matter. I've had enough of the WTS approach where you only listen to the side that tickles your ears with what you already believe. Let's get all the facts and then we can decide whose head to chop off. That was my point, not that Walker is guilty, or isn't guilty, but that we can't know for sure at this point.

  I suppose if Walker's parents turn out to have been too permissive, we'll see calls for them to be tortured too. Buf if permissiveness is to be punished, half the parents in the United States are in big trouble.
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  61

  Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the march 1, 2002 watchtower contains a couple of articles on noah's flood and the application of this legend to "our day".

  thrust of the articles is first to show that the flood was a real, earthwide event, and then to scare ignorant readers into accepting the jw message by claiming that our world is about to undergo a similar divine punishment.

  pretty standard fare for long time jw observers.. in the past the watchtower society has published extensive material purporting to show that a global flood occurred a few thousand years ago.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Seeker

  The similarities cannot possibly be coincidental.

  Inigo Montoya to the WTS: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."