Posts by Seeker

9

200 Years?? Those who where at the meeting...

by OhHappyDay in

jw
friends

how to understand the 200 years, what exactly was said and in wich context?.

anybody taped the speach?.

i am in europe, so i had no ticket, but i need this info while i'm helping my family.

Seeker

In that same thread I pointed out how everyone's comments were going to be misunderstood, and now it is happening. The notes that were posted had the speaker saying something like 200 years from now, when they were in paradise already, ... He did NOT say Armageddon is 200 years off. He did NOT give a specific date for Armageddon.

Consider it this way: According to JWs, in 200 years they will be in paradise. They also think in 300 years they will be in paradise. And in 400 years they will be in paradise, etc.

24

Pledge of Allegiance

by Celia in

jw
friends

poor jw kids all aver america :.

to: vermont school board members.

from: edie miller.

Seeker

have never read that "when children in China recite things by rote in mass numbers, we call it propaganda". Actually, teaching children to repeat things as a group, like songs, poems, anthems, etc. has been used for a very long time. It's very effective. Not sinister at all. You appear to be confusing method with content.

I should have been clear. I meant when they chant government slogans in a place such as China. We call that communist propaganda. I was pointing out that when you ask every child in America to recite a government slogan at the same time, it is close enough to make a valid comparison in my opinion.

I agree with you on most of the things you post. But I often get the impression that you still harbor cynisism towards the U.S. goverment. I don't know if it's residual from your days as a JW or if it's just a healthy mistrust of government. I mistrust bureacracies and politicians, but I love this country. When I reflect on what this country is, stands for, does for it's own people and others around the world, it makes me feel proud. When I think about the young men who for almost 300 years have paid the ultimate price for what we enjoy today, it makes me proud.

Then we agree, really, for that is my view too. My cynicism toward the U.S. government was developed after I left the WTS, actually. It came as I educated myself on history and current events, subjects I neglected as a JW. What I found is that the maxim that all organizations eventually become corrupted (so obvious in the history of the WTS) is fairly true, and it includes the U.S. government (as well as every other government on earth).

So I distrust the politicians, but I appreciate the common person, and I love my country. Love it enough to be willing to criticize it when I feel it deserves it, and not just parrot empty ideas such as 'my country right or wrong.' I know you don't do that, so please understand that you and I probably are much closer on this issue than you may think.

I have to say, this thread made me rethink my views on the Pledge of Allegiance. To my surprise, although I love my country, and am loyal to my country, I cannot actually subscribe to all of the ideas in the Pledge. I do not, for instance, think God has anything to do with this or any other country, so how could I honestly say, "One nation under God"? Nor do I truly believe there is "liberty and justice for all." I would feel very uncomfortable about being asked to make that Pledge now, much to my surprise after thinking it through, even though I am proud to be American.

I guess I prefer spontaneous expressions of patriotism from the heart over coerced expressions of rote ideas. Any JW in school on Friday is going to feel that coersion explicitly or implicity by the groupthink that seems to have swept the nation recently. If they are hassled over this, I will feel badly for them, and disagree with the harassment, for this is a free country with the freedom to express your thoughts any way you want.

24

Pledge of Allegiance

by Celia in

jw
friends

poor jw kids all aver america :.

to: vermont school board members.

from: edie miller.

Seeker

When children in China recite things by rote in mass numbers, we call it propaganda.
When children in America recite things by rote in mass numbers, we call it patriotism.

All a matter of who you ask, I guess.

21

I hate Apostates ....

by RR in

jw
friends

here's a nice one from great crowd.

javlin .

junior member .

Seeker

I can't wait until Jehovah kills them and everyone else not in his Organization!

This is one of the reasons the Society wants to prevent places like GreatCrowd.com from happening -- it gives a bad name to JWs everywhere. Just think if you were a householder wondering what those two nice JWs who came to your door that morning were thinking behind their smiles. You check out a place that brags it is only for JWs, and you see that comment, and realize that behind their smiles were awful thoughts about how you were going to become bird food.

As I said, their own thoughts give JWs a bad name, so the Society wants to keep them from sharing their thoughts. Fortunately for us, there are plenty of disloyal JWs who go on the Net to JW sites anyway. Just makes it all the easier for us.

13

Ray Franz's book , just a pack of lies?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

my wife is very sceptical of ray franz's book coc.. what i want to know is this , has the society ever shown that the events described in that book are false and the letters or statments quoted are false?

i feel their silence on the matter speaks for itself.. has the society ever sued any so called apostate writer for lies in their books?.

i personaly dont agree with all the critacism about jehovahs witnesses and understand that ray's slant on matters may not always be unbiased (who ever is?

Seeker

This is a common tactic used by closed-minded JWs: just claim it is all lies, whatever that might be. Claims stated here? "Lies!" Something negative in the newspaper? "Lies!" Ray Franz's books? "Lies!"

My response is simple, to the point, and has never yet been answered:

Name one specific lie.

They can't. No the Society never responded to Ray Franz. They couldn't. He had the actual memos and they are photocopied into his books.

44

Bin Laden Innocent?

by dubla in

jw
friends

there have been several threads recently where individuals have spoken out against the united states for their actions against afghanistan.

there are some people on this forum who continue to express the belief that bin laden has not had a fair trial up to this point, and these same people have insinuated that perhaps the u.s. doesnt have enough proof against him and his network to take forceful military action.

for any still unclear on this, please click here >>> http://www.cnn.com/2001/world/asiapcf/central/10/10/gen.alqaeda.video/index.html.

Seeker

aa,

I hear ya. I agree with what you are saying. I just viewed this somewhat tangential thought appropriate as a reminder for all the people (me included) who thought Bush gave a nice speech. It's also good to remember that he lied in the process, apparently. By keeping our eyes open, we can form better conclusions, rather than just the ones we are led to.

9

Why don't we ALL just shut up and go away!

by Bridgette in

jw
friends

so, why dont we all just shut up and leave the wtbts alone to its work?

this question comes up frequently from those still inside the organization.

i want to address this question from my humble pov.

Seeker

And thank you for venting with us. :)

In addition to what you say, I also find it humorous when a JW tells us, "Why can't you just go your own way in peace and leave us alone?" What does an ex-Catholic who becomes a JW do? Right, they go door-to-door, preaching to Catholics about the problems of the Catholic church. I think Catholics should tell these JWs, "Why can't you just go your own way in peace and leave us alone?"

JWs are just getting a taste of their own medicine. How appropriate.

44

Bin Laden Innocent?

by dubla in

jw
friends

there have been several threads recently where individuals have spoken out against the united states for their actions against afghanistan.

there are some people on this forum who continue to express the belief that bin laden has not had a fair trial up to this point, and these same people have insinuated that perhaps the u.s. doesnt have enough proof against him and his network to take forceful military action.

for any still unclear on this, please click here >>> http://www.cnn.com/2001/world/asiapcf/central/10/10/gen.alqaeda.video/index.html.

Seeker

I just happened to read an article about this very subject. It is in the October 8 New Yorker magazine, beginning on p. 34. Note these excerpts (bolding mine):

"After more than two weeks of around-the-clock investigation into the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the American intelligence community remains confused, divided, and unsure about how the terrorists operated, how many there were, and what they might do next. It was that lack of solid information, government officials told me, that was the key factor behind the Bush Administration's decision last week not to issue a promised white paper listing the evidence linking Osama bin Laden's organization to the attacks...
The F.B.I. is still trying to sort out the identities and backgrounds of the hijackers. The facts is, the official acknowledged, "we don't know much about them."...
In interviews over the past two weeks, a number of intelligence offficials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone."...
"These people are not necessarily from bin Laden," a Justice department official told me. "We're still running a lot of stuff out," he said, adding that the F.B.I. had been inundated with leads. On September 23rd, Secretary of State Colin Powell told a televisioni interviewer that "we will put before the world, the American people, a persuasive case" showing that bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. But the widely anticipated white paper could not be published, the Justice Department official said, for lack of hard facts. "There was not enough to make a sale."

There you have it. After Bush told the nation that the culprit was bin Laden, and after Tony Blair said he had been shown incontrovertable proof that the culprit was bin Laden, government officials, an FBI official, a CIA official, and a Justice department official all say they don't know that much yet, and the reason the American public hasn't been shown the proof against bin Laden yet is because there is a lack of hard facts.

Now, don't get me wrong, bin Laden is most likely involved, and recent videotapes make the case quite well (assuming they aren't lying when they translate the tapes), but these tapes came out this week. What Bush told the nation was before those tapes came out.

Either Bush lied to us about the certainty they felt about it being bin Laden, or several government officials lied to the author of this article. One way or another, somebody in government lied to us about this matter. Don't ever forget that. No matter how it turns out in the end, we were lied to already.

44

Bin Laden Innocent?

by dubla in

jw
friends

there have been several threads recently where individuals have spoken out against the united states for their actions against afghanistan.

there are some people on this forum who continue to express the belief that bin laden has not had a fair trial up to this point, and these same people have insinuated that perhaps the u.s. doesnt have enough proof against him and his network to take forceful military action.

for any still unclear on this, please click here >>> http://www.cnn.com/2001/world/asiapcf/central/10/10/gen.alqaeda.video/index.html.

Seeker

you do? you must be privy to information about the evidence in this case that the rest of us are not, considering they havent released any of that evidence to the public yet.

Yes they have. The BBC published a list of points that were presented to Tony Blair by the US. It wasn't everything, but it was quite a few points. But it was a lot of inference and assumption, so the real hard evidence was held back. Sorry, I can't find the story link now, but I read it late last week.

And yes, bin Laden was trained by the CIA during the Russia-Afghanistan war. bin Laden is Saudi, and he came to help the mujahadeen fighters in their struggle with Russia. Since that benefited the US during the cold war, the US helped these Afghan fighters and trained some, including bin Laden. When the Russians pulled out, so did the US -- big mistake. Instead of helping rebuild the country, a power void was left amidst anarchy. The Taliban came in from Pakistan, and the rest is history.

Tony Blair gave a speech yesterday saying that they had made mistakes with regard to Afghanistan in the past, but this time they would stick around to help rebuild the country. At least they are learning from their past mistakes.

133

MAJOR UN/WTS/NGO NEWS - WTS IS GONE

by hawkaw in

as of 11:45 this morning (i had a telphone call this morning with the refernce department person named holly at 212-963-7234), i can tell you that the watchtower has disassociated itself from the united nations dpi!!!!!!.

the dpi is now taking them off the list.

the dpi requested the list removal to be done this morning!!!!!.

Seeker

Hawk,

We do appreciate your hard work, and we will be patient. You understand what needs to be obtained, and I know you'll do your best to get it. I just wanted to express my opinion as to what is needed, to make sure it wasn't overlooked. But you didn't. Thanks.

I also wondered about ol' Ciro. I smell scapegoat...