Posts by Seeker

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

D Wiltshire,

You are misreading my words, which is why you think I am contradicting myself even though I am not. Pat understood what I was saying.

quote:
The ants don't think about what they are doing. They don't have a goal in mind. They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence.
See the contradiction? You say they don't have intelligence and in the same sentence you say aleast not what we would concider intelligence so you admit they may have intelligence, very confussing statements, not very well thought out. Sorry I have to say this I mean you no insult.

No insult received, for you were the one who misunderstood what I was saying. I was talking about the ants carrying out a task by instinct. At such times, they are not using intelligence at all. My phrase, "They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence" was merely a kind way of phrasing it. I could have said simply, "they are not using intelligence at such times" and be done with it, but that would have so directly contradicted your premise that I wanted to find a kinder way to phrase it.

quote:
Cellular organisms don't even have the limited brain ability that ants do. There is truly an example of purpose without intelligence or even instinct at work.
I think you need to research more what your talking about. BTW way you just contradicted yourself on the ants.

No, I don't need to research more, for what I said was true. May I suggest that you do some more reseach and then you'll understand what I was saying. And no, I did not contradict myself about the ants. They are acted by instinct. Cellular organisms don't even have that.

I'll say it again: you need to study this issue more. The answers are not as simple as your initial premise makes it out to be.

9

Do men have a greater "creative genius"?

by perfectpie in

what comes to your mind when you think of the great minds of the past?.

for me it is da vinci, michaelangelo, manet, monet, picasso, van gogh,.

jerome; closer to today nelson shanks and maybe daniel green.. musically: mozart, beethoven, chopin, hayden, bach.. science: darwin, hawkings, einstein, edisen.. psychology: freud, otto rank, ernest becker.. there are many other fields you could name and with them other creative geniuses and/or great minds.

Seeker

I agree with Alan. For most of human history, men have done all they could to prevent women from reaching their potential. Not surprisingly, for most of human history, men have been doing the accomplishments and we'll never know what women could have done had they been given a chance.

For a modern-day example of this phenomenon, look at Taliban-led Afghanistan. Where are all the women doctors, and teachers, and artists?? Uh, home, prisoners of the male-dominated society.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

Not intelligence in the sense of thought as you or I would define it, no. The ants don't think about what they are doing. They don't have a goal in mind. They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence.

Cellular organisms don't even have the limited brain ability that ants do. There is truly an example of purpose without intelligence or even instinct at work.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

Those same "physical forces that act against living forever" as you say don't they also work against reproducing and surviving

Which is why we will both wear down and die someday. In the meantime, we can both reproduce and help humanity survive. Those physical forces don't prevent survival, just make it necessary to have to fight to survive. Which life does.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

Ah, a response, thanks.

You say you think evolution is probably true. May I suggest that you continue reading on the subject, as the questions you raise indicate you don't understand the theory very well. Not trying to be insulting, it's just that your questions are easily answered.

Again how come it "some how mutated" and progessed to duplicating itself, a pretty amazing feat for no intelligence.

It's actually quite simple, given enough time. No intelligence required. If it didn't mutate, it wouldn't have duplicated itself, and there would be no point in discussing it. Only once one did was there anything worth noting.

It survives and passes on its genetic material in whatever proto form it was back then.
Question did it decide to do this all by itself. And why reproduce a exaxct copy, why not something different if no intelligence is involved?

It didn't "decide" anything. Genetics just works. There is no intelligence involved, just biology.

quote:
All those organisms that didn't pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse died off.
Why did they have to die? Why couldn't they live forever? Since no intelligence is involved they couldn't they have done something that required no intelligence?

Physical forces act against living forever. A brick wall will stop a moving car, no intelligence required.

quote:
Those organisms that did pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse propagated. Therefore, a purpose was born that had no intelligence behind it.
I think Evolution is probably True.
But what sounds ludicrous to me is,.. No intelligence behind it. How do you know there was no intelligence behind evolution? Or is it just your assumption?

No, it's how evolution is explained, which is why I suggested at the beginning that you might benefit from researching the subject some more. You questions indicate you don't understand that which you think is "probably true."

May I suggest www.talkorigins.org as a place to learn more about the subject? It's quite a good site. Please keep in mind that evolution does NOT discuss ultimate origins. If you wish to posit a God that started the evolutionary process, go right ahead. Many evolutionists do just that. That would encompass your intelligence idea. This deity would be the One who had the intelligence behind life.

My original point is that there are examples in nature of purpose without intelligence. Even if God is ultimately behind it all, there are still exceptions to the rule you posted. What you said is mostly true, unless you take the philosophical direction that there is no purpose to life (which is an entirely different idea), but not 100% true.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

Another example that occurs to me: Every watch ants build an anthill, or a living bridge across water? They work together with a precision that implies intelligent design, but in fact they are acting on instinct without any intelligent thought of what they are doing. They are living creatures, building a bridge, that have no idea they are building a bridge. All they know is that they are doing this small part of a larger action, whatever that action is.

If you look down at what they are doing, it seems they have an intelligent purpose. Those who study ants know that is not the case (do some research -- it's an interesting topic). Ants have a purpose to fulfill at such times, without the intelligence to create that purpose. Purpose without intelligence.

I understand the concept of the original premise. But it's too all-encompassing. There are exceptions to the rule.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

I keep pointing out as well as demonstrating that I understood your premise from the beginning. Try actually rebutting my points if you disagree. Take on the cellular organisms and tell me how this fits your premise.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

On a certain philosophical level, we can't know luggage doesn't possess intelligence. Perhaps there is an entire planet of leather luggage that sits around discussing the big ideas, attend parties, and basically have the luggage equivalent of the good life. Having never seen this happen, we humans tend to think they don't have intellgence. There is no brain that we recognize.

Just as with some cellular organisms. Which have a purpose without intelligence.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

D Wiltshire,

Don't be so insulting. Yes, I did think it through. Others disagreed with me, and kept talking about outside intelligence and its effect on the luggage. I was talking about the luggage itself, how it serves a purpose.

Now, hungry4life chose to rebut my point instead of insulting me, and that was appreciated. The point that luggage only has a purpose only if one is assigned to it is valid, I think, and I am still thinking about it.

46

You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence, And?

by D wiltshire in

you can't have purpose without intelligence,and.. you can't have intelligence without intelligence.. .

.

if someone lived a trillion x longer than you, and had a billion x more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?.

Seeker

Well, with the origins of life, you would have inanimate material with no intelligence that somehow mutates into a reproductive organism. It survives and passes on its genetic material in whatever proto form it was back then. All those organisms that didn't pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse died off. Those organisms that did pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse propagated. Therefore, a purpose was born that had no intelligence behind it. We see the same process at work with certain types of cellular organisms -- no intelligence at work, just a process, but the purpose is clear: survive and grow.