Those last three posts key on what I, and a lot of other freethinkers and rationalists, see as a huge weakness in the belief in the supernatural - while there is absolutely NO evidence for the supernatural, it helps me to feel better if I do, so therefore, I choose to believe in something which gives no evidence that it even exists.
Humans have created non-existent, invisible, myth-worlds in order to make themselves feel better, comforted and watched-over. Much of this comes out of our historic fear of death which developed as we became intelligent enough to be aware of our selves, time and surroundings.
It's an irrational choice, bolstered by reference to "holy" books - the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, the Jewish Law – created by ancient priesthoods trying to find a way to keep themselves in power and the common person under control and in fear.
Journey on wrote: "So, rather than saying God and Angels, what if you looked at it like any other energy that is invisible to the naked eye. God is the Universal Source, a subtle non-corporeal undetectable (as yet) energy through all, within all, and around all. And angels are like a stepped down or transduced portion of this energy, transformed into a lesser put still powerful energy force. We interact with these forces daily although most are not aware of it."
Wrapping the supernatural in New Age terminology doesn't make any more sense to me than believing in mythical gods. Sure, physics teaches me that all matter is essentially converted energy. It doesn't mean that that energy is conscious, aware of me or caring for me in either a positive or negative way. That energy just is, and I see no reason to assume it has qualities of malevolence or benevolence. Like a tree, I can use the matter in a tree to build my house, or the tree can fall on me and that matter will kill me if I'm not careful. The tree isn't concerned about what happens to it one way or another. It's not conscious in any way that matters to us.
Caljuher wrote: "While I respect what Seeker is saying and where he is coming from, Seeker, you cannot prove angels don't exist or aren't watching over people or prayers don't work anymore than those who believe in them can."
That's another example of the sad reasoning required to believe in the supernatural. It was handled long ago by the argument that I cannot disprove that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster circling Jupiter - but considering the total lack of evidence, WHY would I WANT to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?? We could sit together throughout eternity creating a list of things we CAN'T disprove, but it would be a totally meaningless exercise. Believing in something simply because you can't prove it doesn't exist is very, very poor use of your critical thinking skills.
But it was Snowbird's comment that really hit it for me. She wrote: "To the contrary, the curse came from our being too puffed up with pride to seek for and obey our Creator. I take full responsibility for all my actions, including the choice of acknowledging the fact that neither I nor any other humans have answers. I see nothing childish in that; it takes a real woman or man to admit that we're badly in need of salvation - even from ourselves!"
That's the saddest thing that religious belief in the supernatural has done to humankind - telling us we're "puffed up with pride," that we need to seek and obey a creator (for whom there is no evidence of existence), that humans have "no answers" and that we need this thing called "salvation" - even salvation from ourselves. It's just the rote rattling off of words taught by various religions worldwide. What utter nonsense!! What a terrible thing to teach people - that we're inherently bad and lacking ability and need to be saved from ourselves. That we should grovel at the feet of some mythic deity whose own holy books describe him as a psychopathic hater, torturer and killer.
And what is the "salvation" the holy books tell us we need?? To live with the psychopath and constantly tell him how wonderful he is. That sounds like a nice way to spend eternity!!
Humans are glorious, and should be proud of what we can do. And what does it mean to say that humans have no answers? What are the questions? It's quite easy to come up with an answer as to what we should do with our lives, why we're here and what happens when we die - it's just that those rational answers don't "feel" as good as thinking that there is a mythic big daddy in the sky who is going to solve all our problems for us because we're bad and helpless children that daddy needs to "save."
Sirona, I do understand that there are some things that we are not close to understanding. But so far, experiments about ESP and especially the ability to see into the "future" have been a long, long way from convincing or supportive.
Thanks to all for enlivening this debate!
S4
