AlainAlam
JoinedPosts by AlainAlam
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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Evidence of WT bad intent - How they handled changing the meaning of "porneia"
by AlainAlam insorry, long post :) i'm considering evidence that at least at some point, the gb/watchtower had bad intentions.
i would like to share the following: *** w74 11/15 p. 703 questions from readers ***do lewd practices on the part of a married person toward that one’s own mate constitute a scriptural basis for the offended mate to get a divorce?there are times when lewd practices within the marriage arrangement would provide a basis for a scriptural divorce.. based on this, some jw chose to divorce.
but then:*** w83 3/15 p. 30 honor godly marriage!
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AlainAlam
Sorry, long post :) I'm considering evidence that at least at some point, the GB/Watchtower had bad intentions. I would like to share the following:*** w74 11/15 p. 703 Questions From Readers ***
Based on this, some JW chose to divorce. But then:
Do lewd practices on the part of a married person toward that one’s own mate constitute a Scriptural basis for the offended mate to get a divorce?
There are times when lewd practices within the marriage arrangement would provide a basis for a Scriptural divorce.*** w83 3/15 p. 30 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
If the new definition is correct, then the divorces of Witnesses whose mate was guilty of "loose practices within the marriage arrangement" is actually not valid in Jehovah's eyes. It follows that their subsequent remarriage would be fornication in Jehovah's eyes. Now (and I know many don't agree with me) I'm willing to give the Organization the benefit of the doubt, i.e. to consider that this whole thing was an honest mistake. Well, actually, I don't think anyone would claim they did it on purpose to break up Witness families. But they did make a mistake that led Witnesses to make a huge sin in Jehovah's eyes. The question is: How did they handle this huge mistake?A concept that I learned from the Bible/Organization is that "the degree of regret ought to be commensurate with the degree of deviation", to quote Insight. To illustrate: If I bump into someone in public transportation, a small "woops, sorry" is enough. But the bump causes his glasses to break and fall, or worse, makes him fall and die under the bus's wheels, "woops, sorry" won't do it. Much more is required. The first bump may not have been intentional; but the "size" of my repentance shows how sincere I really am. So, again - How did the Watchtower handle this huge mistake?Well, the above mentioned article has this as a footnote:
“fornication” in the broad sense, and as used at Matthew 5:32 and 19:9, evidently refers to a broad range of unlawful or illicit sex relations outside marriage. Porneia involves the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human (whether in a natural or a perverted way); also, there must have been another party to the immorality—a human of either sex, or a beast.*** w83 3/15 p. 31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
I find this really troubling. They played a direct role in families breaking up and honest-hearted individuals committing fornication. They can't just dismiss it in a footnote. They can't not mention that it was a huge mistake and apologize for it. If I were guilty of fornication and just mentioned it "footnote-like" without any admission of guilt before a judicial committee, I would be judged "unrepentant" and disfellowshipped. A proper way of dealing with this would have been a whole article on their mistake, where they 1) explain what happened, 2) fully admit responsibility, 3) apologize profusely to Jehovah "before the onlookers" i.e. all the Witnesses and other readers of the Watchtower, to the individuals they led to sin, and to the families they played a direct role in breaking up. That would have been "relying on Jehovah" and allowing him to bless their repentance and "righting of their wrong".To me, this is clear evidence of one instance where the Watchtower was obviously "unrepentant". Even if the mistake(s) in defining porneia and grounds for divorce were honest, the way they dealt with it definitely wasn't. At some point, they thought "let's sweep it under the rug and save face", and this is not just a mistake, it is evil.Does anyone have anything to add to my reasoning above, whether something pro-WT or something anti-WT that I've missed?
This is an amplification and adjustment in understanding of what appears in The Watchtower of November 15, 1974, pages 703-704, and of February 15, 1978, pages 30-32. Those who acted on the basis of the knowledge they had at the time are not to be criticized. Nor would this affect the standing of a person who in the past believed that a mate’s perverted sexual conduct within marriage amounted to porneia and, hence, obtained a divorce and is now remarried.
* Disclaimer: I don't believe in Jehovah or the Bible. The above is written from a biblical perspective for the sake of analyzing the Watchtower's intentions.* Note: Some might disagree with my opinions and think I'm being too nice with the Watchtower. If you do, please feel free to mention it - I want to hear it. But as mentioned in the rules, please "Keep It Civil", i.e. "No Harassment/Drama, No Personal Attacks or Bullying, Keep Activist Debate/Discussion Civil, Civil Debate with Apologists is Allowed". This helps keep the discussion upbuilding and, actually, enjoyable for all :) -
84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
Finkelstein, yes, I wonder what they'll do when it becomes obvious their later "explanation" of the "generation" wasn't right either!
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
Magnum, thanks for the two-scenario illustration. I understand what you're saying. I think that to start with, they didn't even have the bad intention of "stealing", to use your illustration. But I'm seeing that at some point they chose to hide/lie instead of being frank/honest/transparent/genuine. This is where evil stepped in.
607 is a subject I never gave much attention when I was a witness. I was like "who cares". But you guys mentioned it often, in connection with Carl Olof Jonsonn as well as Franz, so I will check this out. Right after I'm done with the ARC issue and some other things I have in mind and will write about soon.
If you don't mind, could you please let me know when you start a thread on the disaster relief moneymaking scam? I don't check everything written on this website (there's so much!) so I'm afraid I might miss it :)
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
Vidiot, thanks for your input. Yes, I'm learning to see that.
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
days of future passed: Thanks for taking the time :) I appreciate it. I went through all the verses and references. If I understand correctly, Rev 11 speaks of the beast coming out of the abyss [JW: political system] + the image of the beast [JW: LoN/UN], while Rev 17 speaks of a beast [JW: UN] that looks like the first one but is purple. Their interpretation since 1942 allows for the beast of Rev 11 to be the political system that persecuted them in the 1910s rather than the UN that wasn't there until 1945.
Of course the whole of Relevation is just *faceslap* but I don't think they're misleading on purpose to avoid ending up with an understanding where the UN persecuted them in the 1910s.
About hiding sexual abuse, I'm checking the evidence. Currently listening to the ARC recording. Thanks for mentioning the topic. But what's the "20/20 television show"?
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
"When a common JW apostate like us can see through all the lies, deceptions, cover ups of the WT, do you think the people who run this show are not aware of these ?"
EverApostate, I don't think it's that simple. Allow me to illustrate: I come from a Muslim family. I started reading the Quran at age 12 or so. It was immediately clear to me that the whole thing was bullshit. I could see through it. I'm sure many Muslim scholars see through it as well, but perpetuate the lie for different reasons. But I'm also sure many Muslim scholars, even among the most educate ones, still believe it. Cognitive dissonance can be very effective. Particularly when we learn to "focus on the positive". When I was a JW, every time I saw crap in the Bible and/or publications I would focus on all the reasons I had to believe in the Bible/the organization. I hate religion :)
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
TD thanks for the link on eating blood, I read it all :)
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
Incognito, thank you for taking the time to write this. You're right each could have his own criteria of what defines bad intent. I just wanted to say that I'm not asking for your thoughts just so I could dismiss them :)
You're also right when you say not everything is black and white. Just because their intentions are not pitch black doesn't automatically mean they are pure. That's something others have helped me understand.
"When honest mistakes are made, honest people will admit to those mistakes and will usually take steps to correct matters to prevent the same mistakes from being made going forward. What mistakes have the GB admitted to?"
That's a very good benchmark. I'm actually looking deeper into it.
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84
Do you have any evidence that the GB had bad intent?
by AlainAlam indo you have any evidence that the gb had bad intent?
as opposed to blind faith/cognitive dissonance and honest mistakes.. i'm inclined to think they have the best of intentions and are just wrong (primarily because the bible is wrong), but i'm willing to consider the evidence otherwise..
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AlainAlam
DesirousOfChange Thank you for your input. That's a possibility.