Posts by Recovery

88

Jwfacts-- Why So Many Contradictions?

by Recovery in

i am well aware that many members of this board adhere to the view that the wt and/or the bible is contradictory.

the question is: if paul grundy is so enlightened as to 'the truth about the truth', why is he so contradictory?.

jwfacts to me (in a personal message): "much of the information at jwfacts.com is from the research of people far more gifted then me,and comes from jwn.

Jwfacts-- Why So Many Contradictions?

by Recovery in

i am well aware that many members of this board adhere to the view that the wt and/or the bible is contradictory.

the question is: if paul grundy is so enlightened as to 'the truth about the truth', why is he so contradictory?.

jwfacts to me (in a personal message): "much of the information at jwfacts.com is from the research of people far more gifted then me,and comes from jwn.

I am well aware that many members of this board adhere to the view that the WT and/or The Bible is contradictory. The question is: If Paul Grundy is so enlightened as to 'the truth about the truth', why is he so contradictory?

Jwfacts to me (in a personal message): "Much of the information at jwfacts.com is from the research of people far more gifted then me,and comes from JWN. The arguments on my site are there becausethey are the ones that ex-JWs use, not the other way around."

Jwfacts today: "BTW, that list you are discussing is from Franz, who came to believe that the great crowd is in heaven.. Why do you think anyone is going to take your arguments seriously, when you are only regurgitating what you are told, and what any JW or exJW has been told for years."

Jwfacts today (explaining why he uses these arguments): "Secondly, I discredit the Watchtower because it is a deceitful and dangerous cult."

Previously he says: The arguments are there because they are the ones that ex-JW's use.

Jwfacts in his Trinity article: A human cannot hope to understand the reality of the Nature of God; spiritual beings are beyond the comprehension of physical beings. The closest a fleshly being can come to understanding the spiritual realm, a realm unknown to daily reality or scientific understanding, is through the approximations of antropomorphological statements. For this reason, any description of God is merely a vague humanised likeness. As the reality of God is an unsolvable mystery, incomprehensible until we see him "face to face"."

Jwfacts later writes: "In the first place, the article was not siding with the Trinity, it was showing why other people firmly believe it."

Then he writes: "It does say the trinity is correct."

Jwfacts says: "I do not need to point people to another belief. ..But as I try to do by showing why certain doctrine is wrong I do not need to tell them to believe another doctrine, or another organisation. All I need to do is help people learn to think and see other points of view so that they can move on to healthier ways of thinking. "

Jwfacts then says: "In certain teachings, such as the Great Crowd of Other Sheep,it is quite obvious what the Bible meant, so I present that

In fact nearly every doctrinal article is 'presenting' 'another doctrine' or 'another belief'.

When will the contradictions stop Jwfacts?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

I think post 3 on this page pretty much sums up every argument/claim that has been made. It has been conclusively proven from every angle that magic cannot be equivocated to miracles. But of course jwfacts is more concerned with his Google ranking and the number of hits his website is getting than with the actual facts. But onlookers are not blind to such deceit.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Showing That Magics Cannot Be Equivocated To Miracles:

Illustrations:
You have two cars. They look exactly the same. They are both brand new, being driven for the first time with 0 mileage. They are the same shape, size, color, and have all the same features on the outside. But one is a hybrid car that runs off a battery and the other car runs on premium gas. Now will you ever hear a car dealership call these two cars the same, sell them for the same price, and make absolutely no distinction between the two? Of course not. You would definitely want to know whether your car is a hybrid or a regular car no matter how similar they look on the outside. That is the difference between magic and miracles. On the outside, they may appear to be the same, and allow you to reach a particular destination (supernatural repercussions), but the source (the inside of the car) is what makes them different. That is why one is condemned (magic) and one is approved by God (miracles).

Now here's an illustration. Imagine that your license as an attorney has been suspended temporarily and you are ordered by the state board to not practice any form of law, as your license is now suspended. Would you violate the law if you study your old college law books, examine precedent court cases, and learn new techniques by watching other lawyers present their cases? Of course not. You were instructed to not practice law.

You have two identical ovens, side by side. One is conventional, the other is convectional. Surely, when you are baking, you will note that there are some recipes that call for different instructions when using a conventional or a convectional oven. Now why is that, elderelite? In fact when baking, if you are using a conventional oven you might have to use a completely different temperature than if you were using a convectional oven. Both ovens are identical in model and both get the job of baking done. So why do some recipes call for different instructions for two seemingly identical ovens who simply have a different SOURCE of energy (speaking on a molecular level)? Is it because that source is important and makes a big difference?

So you are saying that how the electricity is used makes the difference and the distinction between the two ovens, correct?

So I am saying that how the supernatural force is used makes the difference and the distinction between miracles and magic.

A miracle's supernatural force is under the manipulation of God, a magic's supernatural force is under the manipulation of something other than God.

The "How" is the defining difference as you showed us quite clearly, elderelite.

The Bible vs. jwfacts:

Jehovah says "YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic." (Lev 19:26)

Jwfacts says: All the people in the Bible DID practice magic and there was no distinction between the practice of magic and miracles performed of God, directly contradicting God's word.

Etymologically Speaking:

Etymological origins of magic: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magike, feminine of magikosMagian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer , of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian maguš sorcerer

Etymological origins of miracle: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirarito wonder at

Lexicographically Speaking:

After looking up the word magic a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms:bewitchery, bewitchment, conjuring, devilry(or deviltry) , diablerie, enchantment, ensorcellment, mojo, necromancy, sorcery, thaumaturgy, voodooism, witchcraft, witchery, wizardry

Now logically if two words can be used interchangeably and they have the same meaning, you should likewise find *SIMILAR* synonyms when you look up each word. But such an occurrence cannot be found with the words 'magic' and 'miracle'.

After looking up the word miracle in a thesarus we find the following associated synonyms: caution, flash, marvel, wonder, phenomenon, portent, prodigy, sensation, splendor

What If There's No Apparent Distinction From Onlookers:

We are not allowing the 'onlookers' to define what is magic for us, anymore than we would allow the pagan idol worshippers to define who/what is 'God' for us. That is a fallacious and weak argument, because of course those who believe in and practice sorcery, witchcraft, and other forms of spiritism would only view such a thing as magic as there is no distinction from their standpoint.

Of course, if I am not a Hebrew, I am likely a pagan who believes in thousands of deities. If we are talking about something of a Biblical theological nature, should the pagan's viewpoint be weighed equivocally with that of the Hebrews? Should it be argued that the Bible teaches that there a hundreds and hundreds of 'God's' because many pagan deities are mentioned and when many miracles were performed, independent observers couldn't attribute the difference to Jehovah or one of their gods? Of course not. This isn't about neutrality from a certain individual's standpoint, but this is about the distinction that the Bible makes for us. We could argue in circles all day long about what consistutes a miracle and what consistitutes magic, but when we are speaking from a strictly Biblical perspective, the distinction between the two is made clear.

Use of a Similar Adjective (Miraculous):

We have now moved from the realm of nouns to the realm of adjectives. This is where the distinction becomes muddy because the practice itself is not being described, however, a description of said practice is being described. Let me illustrate it for you. You have two words of a religious association: bishop and minister. Now I'm sure if you go to the dictionary you can find that both nouns can be described as 'religious', perhaps even more specificially having to do with 'Christian religion'. Would you conclude that the word minister is the lexicographical equivalent of bishop and that they should be used interchangeably because as adjectives they are described using similar words? Of course not. A minister can simply be defined as a preacher or a servant, while a bishop MUST have some form of ecclesiastical authority, yet they are both described and related to a religious nature. I hope this helps.

Casting Spells?:

There are those that will argue that the use of amen is essentially the same as the use of abracadabra. But is this really the case?

This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew 'a·men′. The meaning is “so be it,” or “surely.” The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn ('a·man′) means “be faithful; be trustworthy.” When a person says something that is agreeable, the term "amen" is often used.

Now if someone says something that you agree with, are you likely to say abracadabra? Why or why not?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

So you are saying that how the electricity is used makes the difference and the distinction between the two ovens, correct?

So I am saying that how the supernatural force is used makes the difference and the distinction between miracles and magic.

A miracle's supernatural force is under the manipulation of God, a magic's supernatural force is under the manipulation of something other than God.

The "How" is the defining difference as you showed us quite clearly, elderelite.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

KingSolomon wants to argue over who has the authority to restrict an attorney from practicing law and who does not. The source of the suspension of the aforementioned license is not crucial to my illustration or the point I was making and therefore it does not invalidate my illustration. It doesn't matter if the attorney is restricted by the DA, the mayor, the governor, Michael Jackson, or the state board. The point of the illustration is the VIOLATION of the prohibition, not the AUTHORITY behind it.

So here's a simple question for you KingSolomon: If a lawyer's license is suspended and they continue studying law have they violated the prohibition from the state? Yes or no?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

Elderelite: LOL its laughable to cite the source of something as the determining factor. THe reality is you cant know the source. You can CLAIM a source, but if its the same acts that lead to the same end results you have assume the same source.

Its like saying flipping a light switch in a room is to use electricity and flipping the same light switch another day is using water. Its stupid on every level.

Wow, what a wacky illustration. Surely, you did not get the point at all. Let me illustrate it again for you. You have two identical ovens, side by side. One is conventional, the other is convectional. Surely, when you are baking, you will note that there are some recipes that call for different instructions when using a conventional or a convectional oven. Now why is that, elderelite? In fact when baking, if you are using a conventional oven you might have to use a completely different temperature than if you were using a convectional oven. Both ovens are identical in model and both get the job of baking done. So why do some recipes call for different instructions for two seemingly identical ovens who simply have a different SOURCE of energy (speaking on a molecular level)? Is it because that source is important and makes a big difference? Hmmmm.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

How does Jehovah feel about those who attribute his actions to idols?

Exodus 32:1 "..So the people congregated themselves about Aaron and said to him: “Get up, make for us a god who will go ahead of us, because as regards this Moses, the man who led us up out of the land of Egypt, we certainly do not know what has happened to him.”

3 "And all the people began tearing off the gold earrings that were in their ears and bringing them to Aaron. 4 Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: “This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.” 7 Jehovah now said to Moses: “Go, descend, because your people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt have acted ruinously. 8 They have turned aside in a hurry from the way I have commanded them to go. They have made a molten statue of a calf for themselves and keep bowing down to it and sacrificing to it and saying, ‘This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt.’” 9 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I have looked at this people and here it is a stiff-necked people. 10 So now let me be, that my anger may blaze against them and I may exterminate them, and let me make you into a great nation."

If Jehovah feels so strongly about his actions being attributed to pagan idols, I can only imagine how he feels about his actions being attributed to things that can be said to be spiritistic and satanic. I surely wouldn't want to be on the side of those who arguing that God's miracles = magic, would you?

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

I believe everything of substance has been addressed. If you had a valid argument, please point it out. I think onlookers can see the fallaciousness of such reasoning quite clearly.

In one breath Jehovah says magic is detestable and it should never be practiced

And in another breath people are saying magic is fine and dandy and approved by God and was practiced with his assistance.

Attributing the acts of Almighty God with something he considers detestable and in many cases of satanic/demonic origin is borderline blasphemy.

398

Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery in

i have a question for the author of the website jwfacts.

as i was reading the sparlock article, i couldn't help but notice something seriously wrong:.

"the bible abounds in vivid fantasy, such as its many celestial descriptions, or the portrayal of warring kingdoms with imaginary beasts.. the sparlock message is confusing, as much for an adult as for a child, as the bible shows that god's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles.

Recovery

There are those that will argue that the use of amen is essentially the same as the use of abracadabra. But is this really the case?

This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew 'a·men′. The meaning is “so be it,” or “surely.” The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn ('a·man′) means “be faithful; be trustworthy.” When a person says something that is agreeable, the term "amen" is often used.

Now if someone says something that you agree with, are you likely to say abracadabra? Why or why not?