Posts by jhine

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

l also found useful in understanding this passage in context the commentary by William Barclay on Col 1 . He explains that Paul was writing this letter to the Colossian church at a time when Gnostics were trying to stamp their beliefs on the Gospel . Gnostics taught that all matter was evil and so God couldn't touch it , so He created a series of angels each one further away from Him until there was enough space between Him and evil matter for one of those angels to work on creation . They believed that Jesus was just one of these angels , so a bit like WT teaching .

A knock on effect of that was that the body was considered evil so Jesus as the revelation of God could not have had a flesh and blood body . "So Paul speaks of Jesus reconciling man to God in his body of flesh , he says that the fullness of the godhead dwelt in him bodily . In opposition the the Gnostics , Paul insisted on the flesh and blood manhood of Jesus " Barclay's words .

So regarding the reconciliation of all things Barclay says

"There is no doubt that Paul was thinking of the Gnostics . We will remember that they , regarding matter as essentially evil , therefore regarded the world as evil , but as Paul sees it the world is not evil . It is God's world and shares in the universal reconciliation . "

For me understanding the context of the letter helps with understanding what Paul is saying , in the light of the Gnostic invasion of the Colossian church .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

I appear to have copied all of this by mistake but the first bit explains that there is no inconsistency in the " all " Colossians 1:20—Does this verse teach that all will be saved (universalism)?

Problem: The Apostle Paul wrote to the Colossians, “For it was the Father’s good pleasure ... through Him [Christ] to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven” (Col. 1:19–20, nasb). If Paul says that all things are reconciled to Christ by His death and resurrection, this seems to imply that all people are saved. But other Scriptures declare that many will be lost (e.g., Matt. 7:13–14; 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15).

Solution: First of all, Paul is not speaking about universal salvation here, but simply universal sovereignty of Jesus Christ. In other words, all authority has been given to Jesus Christ in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). By virtue of His death and resurrection, Christ as the Last Adam is Lord over all that was lost by the First Adam (cf. 1 Cor. 15:45–49).

Note the contrast between two crucial passages by Paul:

When Paul speaks of being “in Christ” (i.e., being saved), he does not include “those under the earth” (i.e., the lost). However, all persons, saved and unsaved, will one day bow before Christ and acknowledge His universal lordship. But nowhere do the Scriptures teach that all people will be saved. Jesus will say to many, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). John spoke of the devil, the beast and the false prophet, and all whose names are not written in the Book of Life being cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:10–15). Luke speaks of a great impassible gulf between heaven and hell in which those who have rejected God are living in torment (Luke 16:19–31). Paul speaks of punishment on the wicked as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thes. 1:7–9). Jesus declared Judas was lost and called him “the son of perdition” (John 17:12). It is evident from all these passages that not everyone will be saved.

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29

Greta

by road to nowhere in

the daily wire.

facebook glitch reveals father, activist behind greta thunberg's facebook .... i'm not good at getting links right.

but this is interesting in light of greta supposedly doing things on her own according to dear old dad.

jhine

l do wonder how some of her ideas will impact on the poorest people . If we all gave up air travel then countries that rely on tourism ( of which many are very poor countries ) would be up the creek for example .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

l said that l would do a straw poll about the " all " Col 1:20 , so through extensive research ( not ) l asked 6 people at random what their thoughts were about that " all " . They all said that it meant all ( are you still following this ) , everything , the lot etc .

Not sure what that proves except that some people in my church are consistent in their all .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

Firstly , yes JoenB75 , l think that the " all " in those verses refers to all the people present at the time . So , as you say , all the people at the river listening to John . Not all of Israel , that is why l see no problem with all meaning all .

Ratigan350 l , like Vanderhoven7 would like to know where the Bible teaches that Jesus was created .

The Psalms are full of verses making it clear that God / Jehovah created everything Himself .

Psalm 8 : 3

When l consider your heavens , the work of your fingers , the moon and the stars which you set in place .

Psalm 19 : 1

The heavens declare the glory of the Lord , the skies proclaim the work of his hands

Psalm 24 1-2

The earth is the Lord's and everything in it ; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters .

That last one is interesting as Col 1 : 16 says " For in him ( the Son ) all things were created ..... all things have been created through him and for HIM "

So it seems to me that the writer of Colossians is at pains to make the point that Jesus is not a created being .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

No problem JoenB57 , and for the record l do see the all in Col 1:20 as all . Out of interest l will conduct a straw poll in my church on that one . I cannot remember it being discussed in Bible study .

TD l have looked into Luke11:42 and 21:29 and yes my NIV does ad "other " in there , some translations don't . l can't see why for the life of me but it doesn't change the meaning of the teaching . Having looked at the rest of the examples and checking some commentaries l don't think that the "all " in them needs to be qualified and again the gist of the passages are not compromised anyway .

In the case of John 1:3 the addition of " other " obviously does alter the meaning . The whole verse in the literal translation reads " All things through him came into being , and without him came into being not even one thing that has come into being " Doesn't the final part of the verse indicate that the " all " is meant to be all ? It seems so to me .

When you add in other verses to get this into context , such as Col 1:15 " The Son is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn of all creation . Col 1 : 19 "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him " to me this backs up the belief that Jesus was not a created being , like MIchael the Archangel as the WT teaches .

l realise that not everyone will see it like this , but l do think that this is a conversation worth having with JWs .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

Just to get back quickly to JoenB75 as a Tinitarian who is part of a worldwide Trinitarian church , Anglican , our teaching is that The Word , Jesus , is God made man .

This is taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia

"and transforms it by showing that this creative Word which from all eternity was in God and was God, took flesh and dwelt among men "

So the same thing . l would say that in fact most Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

πάντα . l looked this up in Bible Hub Greek interlinear and every possible meaning includes all , every , total ,the lot etc . No doubt that this word is totally inclusive , NOTHING that was made was made without him . Adding the word thing is not changing the meaning . All that was made is the same as every thing that was made .

It's adding other that changes it .

Vanderhoven l was asking about both . Without the word other the meaning ( and intent of the writer ) seems clear .

A lot is said about putting verses into context . Well Paul starts this passage by saying the Christ is the image of the invisible God . He goes on to say " For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him "

How do JWs square all this with their teaching that Jesus is a created angel ?

l am curious about the statement that fire breathing evangelicals utterly deny Col 1:20 . Why do you say this JoenB57 ?

As l am neither a JW or a firebreathing evangelical , just a mild mannered Anglican , l hope that hypocrisy is not one of the things that l can be accused of , with regard to this at least .

I am asking because l would like to be prepared when chatting to JWs and asking about this .

Jan

51

Help please

by jhine in

hi , would someone help me please with some info about the nwt .

during my study time l have been reading john 1:1-14 and colossians 1:15-17 .

both these passages indicate that jesus was not created as the wt asserts .

jhine

Hi , would someone help me please with some info about the NWT . During my study time l have been reading John 1:1-14 and Colossians 1:15-17 . Both these passages indicate that Jesus was not created as the WT asserts .

John 1:3 " Through him ALL things were made , without him NOTHING was made that has been made "

NIV International Version , capitals mine for emphasis .

Would some kind person let me know if the NWT changes these verses to alter the meaning . If not how can the borg justify their teaching about Jesus .

Thanks in advance , Jan

21

Merry Xmas / Happy Holidays & a Safe & Prosperous New year to all of you for 2020

by smiddy3 in

i was just looking at some happy holidays / xmas cards some of us sent each other at the close of 2016 of the cards i received only a few of them have your jwn name on them ,the other `s gave me their real names which i cant reveal here.. however this post is for everybody that is on this forum not just to the few i`m referring to.just to clarify .. and i was going to send greetings to you all this year for 2020.. one was from hawaii.

milwaukee.

berlin.

jhine

Hi Xanthippe , how sad that you lost your beloved pet . They really are like part of your family .

Yes we are going to the Garrick . The play is Away in a Danger ( Christmas Carol Casebook ) . It's one of those where 4 or 5 people play a cast of thousands , well not quite . We have seen a few productions by the same group and they are very funny .

Happy New Year to everyone .

Jan