Posts by ironsnake656

4

Archaeological evidence

by ironsnake656 in

one of the many books that helped me to question about the bible narrative is the one from israel finkelstein, the bible unearthed.

archaeology is one of the fascinating sciences and complicated, since you have to interpret/reinterpret the history based on the artifacts, remains, ruins, relics, paintings, sculptures, etc.

that is found in certain area where a civilization existed.

One of the many books that helped me to question about the bible narrative is the one from Israel Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed. Archaeology is one of the fascinating sciences and complicated, since you have to interpret/reinterpret the history based on the artifacts, remains, ruins, relics, paintings, sculptures, etc. that is found in certain area where a civilization existed. In the case of the biblical narrative of Solomon, for example, there is no archaeological evidence of the existence of a golden temple, or architecture that stayed and survived over centuries to realize that a unified and rich kingdom existed as the bible says. Other account that made me doubt, especially when it was studied in the book study, was the account of Daniel. If the account of Daniel was true, it had been kept in Babylonian documents or texts, since Babylonians were known as document keepers. Something could be kept saying that a hand wrote in a wall, that a three men was kept alive inside a fiery furnace, etc. but no, nothing, zero, nada de nada... there is no archaeological evidence of such narratives...

49

Let's talk about Blood again....

by stuckinarut2 in

i know we have all talked about this topic before, but for some new ones on the forum, or to refresh ourselves, i wanted to start this thread.. the society likes to go on about the sacredness of blood, and how it should not be transfused etc.. they liken it to a symbol of life itself.

something that should be respected and therefore not transfused.. but, what is more important: real life, or a symbol of life?.

an illustration came to mind.. if we give a bunch of flowers to a loved one as a symbol of our love for them, are those flowers more important than the love itself?

ironsnake656

I'm agree with wolfman85 about blood was considered sacred in the bible. But I was reading this article of why the obsession of the Israelites of the use of blood:

"Why was such care taken to drain every drop of blood from the sacrificial animals for no other purpose than to dispose of it in various ways on the main altar of the temple. Why this strange, barbaric obsession with blood in such an apparently theologically sophisticated group of people? There were three reasons for the taboos associated with blood and its ritual disposal in ancient Israel.

First, like many people with animist and semi-animist beliefs, the Israelites held that the nephesh, the life of a human being or an animal, lay in its blood. Every living creature had a nephesh. This nephesh was its life-breath, its spirit, that strange life force that pervaded its body and so kept it alive. When a human being or an animal lost its blood, this lifepower would go out from it, and its flesh would die. The Israelite priests described this connection between the nephesh and the blood in four ways:

a. The blood is the life (Deut 12:23);

b. The life of any flesh (any animate creature) is its blood (Lev 17:14b );

c. The life of any flesh is its blood as its life (Lev 17:14a );

d. The life of any flesh is in the blood (Lev 17:11).

Both the Israelites and Canaanites agreed that vitality and blood belonged together in some way. Yet they differed radically in their consequent use of the blood taken from animals. Whereas the Canaanites quite commonly ate meat with blood in it, because they held that the blood in it was spiritually energizing and life-giving, the Israelites refused to eat meat with blood in it. This taboo against the consumption of blood was based on their refusal to assimilate the spirit of the animal and imbibe any life-power from it (Deut 12:23). The Lord, the God of Israel, had in fact forbidden the consumption of blood by his people. They were allowed to eat meat with the blood drained out of it, but the consumption of blood was strictly proscribed at the pain of excommunication by God himself (Lev 17:10; cf. 7:27). Under no circumstances could the Israelites eat meat with blood in it (Gen 9:4; Lev 7:26; 17:12, 14; Deut 12:16, 23-25; 15:23). It was impossible for the Israelites to gain supernatural life-power from animals by the consumption of their blood.

The second reason for exclusive use of blood in the sacrificial ritual was to prevent its misuse in other popular non-Israelite rituals. Some of the Canaanites slaughtered animals and poured out the blood on the graves of their ancestors as food for their spirits. In return they secured protection, vitality and good luck from their ancestors (cf. Ps 16:3, 4). First-born male animals were also sacrificed in such a way that their blood was given to the earth and the underground deities residing in it. In this way the Canaanites gained good crops for themselves and fertility for their animals (cf. Lev 17:5, 6). Blood was even offered up to demons to appease them (Ps 106:34-39; cf. Deut 32:17) and as nourishment to ghosts to conjure them up for the purpose of divination by augury or necromancy (Lev 19:26; cf. Isa 57:5-10; 65:3-7). In each of these cases blood was used ritually to secure something supernatural, such as vitality, protection, blessing, power, or knowledge. All these ritual practices were eliminated by two divine commands. On the one hand, the Lord instructed the Israelites to bring their burnt offerings and peace offerings to the central sanctuary and to offer them to him only there at his altar (Deut 12:20-25). Anybody who offered a sacrifice anywhere else was treated as a murderer and excommunicated from the people of Israel (Lev 17:1-9; cf. Lev 7:27; Deut 12:26, 27). On the other hand, the Lord also decreed that all the blood from the sacrificed animals should be poured out there on his altar (Lev 17:6; Deut 12:27). It could not under any circumstance be used anywhere else and for any other purpose.

The third and most important reason for the taboo on the consumption of blood lay in the Lord‟s mandate for its use in the rite of atonement. The Lord had forbidden any other human use for the blood of animals so that it could be used only by him for the benefit of his people. Leviticus 17:11 has this singular decree: the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood; and I myself have given it to you for making atonement for your lives (nephashoth) upon the altar; for it is the blood that atones by means of the life (nephesh).

Thus the taboo on the consumption of blood resulted form the divine institution of the rite of atonement as part of daily sacrificial ritual at the tabernacle and, later, at the temple. The Hebrew idiom in Leviticus 17:11 is most arresting. In the ritual texts of the Pentateuch the priests are often said to „give‟, or „place‟, the blood on the horns of the altar (eg. Exod 29:12; Lev 8:15; 9:9; 16:8 etc). Elsewhere the Lord uses the same form of the verb nathan in the first person as here to make a formal endowment of some portion from the offerings to the priests as their due and stipend (Lev 6:10; 9:34; Num 18:8, 11, 12, 19, 21, 24, 26). But in Leviticus 17:11 the Lord does not use this idiom to grant the blood of animals to the Israelites as food for them. Instead, he institutes the ritual use of blood as the means by which both they and he made atonement for their lives. He grants them atonement through the blood placed on the altar by them. This word in Leviticus 17:11 founded the rite of atonement as a sacramental enactment. That word did not merely announce what he would accomplish for them in that rite; it actually empowered the rite, so that he worked atonement for his people through their faithful performance of it. That atonement was granted by means of the blood which was placed on the altar. So, by divine decree, the blood of sacrificed animals could no longer be used directly by the Israelites to boost their vitality but was reserved exclusively for the enactment of atonement."

Kleinig, J. (1999). The Blood for Sprinkling Atoning Blood in Leviticus and Hebrews. Lutheran Theological Journal, 33, 3, 124-135.

As you notice, blood in ancient times was used in liturgical rites for purification and atonement, because it was considered the life giver. Today, thanks for the medical advances and knowledge of human body, people can live despite great blood loss, and people can die even if there is no blood loss (poisoning, electrocution, bacteria/viruses, etc.)

38

Question...

by ironsnake656 in

when you were an active member in the jwland, did you expect to receive any kind of help from a brother/sister, but they did not help you?

when i was in the jwland, i expected and was my belief that any brother/sister will help you in time of need, distress or trouble, because we were part of a "lovely organization".

but countless of times when i needed and asked for help, nobody from the org helped me.

ironsnake656

I'm doing better now, LongHairGal. The story does not end here. Because I was really pissed off, I mean, PISSED OFF, I confronted the general manager brother in the congregation when he visited us after the incident happened. I told him that despite we were spiritual brothers, I expected his help since he knew about my situation. He answered that he knew nothing about the matter (which made me angry), and that he will try to seek something for me in the future. This brother was disfellowshipped after a year because he had a secret affair, and his two of his sons disassociated, and was fired from that company...

The point is that they wasted my time and create false expectations about the job, and they were called my "brothers"...

49

Let's talk about Blood again....

by stuckinarut2 in

i know we have all talked about this topic before, but for some new ones on the forum, or to refresh ourselves, i wanted to start this thread.. the society likes to go on about the sacredness of blood, and how it should not be transfused etc.. they liken it to a symbol of life itself.

something that should be respected and therefore not transfused.. but, what is more important: real life, or a symbol of life?.

an illustration came to mind.. if we give a bunch of flowers to a loved one as a symbol of our love for them, are those flowers more important than the love itself?

ironsnake656

All about "Sacredness of Blood" is BS from the Org to justify the doctrine about blood, in order to prevent it from liability and lawsuits. First, it took about 66 years to the Org to set the doctrine (1879-1945). Then, the prohibition of blood among vaccinations. After that, the "personal and conscience" use of fractions of blood or medical procedures. They have to understand that the account of Acts needs to be interpreted according to the culture and knowledge about blood in those times.

I found interesting the note in the article of Matthew Goff "Monstrous Appetites: Giants, Cannibalism, and Insatiable Eating in Enochic Literature": "It is possible that the prohibition against the consumption of blood developed because this act played a role in divination. Divination and the consumption of blood are banned together in Lev 19:26 (cf. 1 Sam 14:31–35). See Milgrom, Leviticus 17–22, 1490–93; Biale, Blood and Belief, 21–23; Wright, The Origin of Evil Spirits, 148. Consult also P.T. Reis, “Eating the Blood: Saul and the Witch of Endor,” JSOT 73 (1997): 3–23."

38

Question...

by ironsnake656 in

when you were an active member in the jwland, did you expect to receive any kind of help from a brother/sister, but they did not help you?

when i was in the jwland, i expected and was my belief that any brother/sister will help you in time of need, distress or trouble, because we were part of a "lovely organization".

but countless of times when i needed and asked for help, nobody from the org helped me.

ironsnake656

Interesting comments and responses. LongHairGal: I'm referring to both moral/financial help, I can also include physical help. This question was raised because I had an experience.

Five years ago, I was experiencing financial hardship and I was unemployed. I received a call from a brother who wanted to gather a team for an industrial company, because he received a call from the general manager. The general manager was a well know brother who was in our congregation before he moved; I knew very well this brother since I invited him sometimes to my house to have meal with him and his family. The brother who called me invited to an interview and to travel to the city to check everything before moving. Everything went fine: interviews, medical checks, apartment rent, cost of living, etc. Then, the brother told me that the hiring process will take a while, so I returned home to prepare myself and my family for moving. The time passed: one week, two weeks, three weeks... and nothing. So I called back the brother, and he told me that something went wrong with the hiring process and I will not be hired. He forwarded me the email from the general manager where explained why I was not hired: I had two lipomas in my harm and medical department was worried about it. I explained them that those were from genetics and benign body fat tissue. But the decision was made: I will not be hired, since I did not satisfy the requirements for the medical department. Anyways... the general manager brother knew about my financial hardship, he knew me for a long time, and despite his position of power and decision, could not he made a concession regarding my "medical" condition? I was disappointed, (actually this experience was one from others which triggered my fading), since I expected a little help from someone who was considered "my brother".

I know a lot of brothers who did not receive any help from brothers who had the power/means of helping.

8

The New System... really... An expanding universe

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

well jesus has handed the kingdom back to jehovah and satan and his demons are dead forever... peace on earth.. great... a million years go by...the human brain would not hold even 1000 years of memories accurately... indeed the former things would not be called to mind but... 2 billion years... oh i's damn hot the sun is running out of hydrogen.... 5 billion years jehovah sit back laughing... we are all dead... unless we move away from earth... not only is the sun a red giant but andromeda has collided with the milky way and rendered our galaxy no longer a spiral galaxy.. navigation is impossible out there.. 2 trillion years.

oh ... if we existed.. we would have no idea theven is a universe.. the expansion is so far that we can't see beyond our own galaxy ... the heaven declare jehovah diminising glory.. 100 trillion years... the galaxy is gone... stars are burning out... in fact atoms are destabilizing... jehovah will need to remake us... likely in to positronium.... dark energy is so powerful we can feel it... assuming we have bodies anymore.... 100 to the 100 power years.... black holes evaporate away,...we have an almost 0 energy universe .. well except for dark energy which is now so powerful matter cannot exists.. 100 to the 200 power years... well there is no mater or energy except for the energy of the vacuum (quantum fluctuations) dark energy had literally torn this universe apart and assuming m theory... that it... jehovah and jesus laugh hysterically..

ironsnake656

That is what happen when you analyze verses from the bible using scientific googles. Bible writers and religion dogmas do not consider the things beyond science and physic phenomena. Jehovah/Jesus have to change all physics laws in the universe to allow humans live forever.

38

Question...

by ironsnake656 in

when you were an active member in the jwland, did you expect to receive any kind of help from a brother/sister, but they did not help you?

when i was in the jwland, i expected and was my belief that any brother/sister will help you in time of need, distress or trouble, because we were part of a "lovely organization".

but countless of times when i needed and asked for help, nobody from the org helped me.

ironsnake656

When you were an active member in the JWland, did you expect to receive any kind of help from a brother/sister, but they did not help you? When I was in the JWland, I expected and was my belief that any brother/sister will help you in time of need, distress or trouble, because we were part of a "lovely organization". But countless of times when I needed and asked for help, NOBODY from the Org helped me. What are your experiences?

18

I love heavy metal!!!

by ironsnake656 in

probably you noticed that my avatar is a photo of steve harris, bassist of iron maiden.

i have quite a few years that i started to listen this kind of music, even when i was in the jwland.

although it was a "no-no" in the borders of jwland, i knew a lot of brothers and sisters that listened and loved this kind of music.

ironsnake656

Thank you all for your comments and for sharing your experiences!! I find so funny the experience of butyoucanneverleave about the elder who played the three songs in the KH speakers system. I'm imagining banging your heads in the back row!!! jaja... what happened if the elder played Slayer's Angel of Death? Image result for god listens to slayer

Anyways, this kind of music accompanied me during my hard times in life, and helped to express my feelings and to examine things more deeper. But the for mainstream people this music genre is outdated, satanist, obscure. Sam Dunn, in his documentary, exposes that heavy metal has been considered bad in society because "Metal confronts what we'd rather ignore. It celebrates what we often deny. It indulges in what we fear most. And that's why metal will always be a culture of outsiders". Besides, Tom Araya, Slayer's front man, said: "I consider what we do art, and art can be a reflection of society. I guess, uh, we're picking up the dark reflections".

I also like to listen disco. I had read some Watchtowers magazines (bound volumes from 1979) from my mom's library and there some articles saying a lot of BS about disco.

57

interesting EX-CO AMA ( Ask Me Anything) over on exjwreddit

by Diogenesister in

ex-circuit overseer here, ama.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/6usaky/excircuit_overseer_here_ama/.

ironsnake656

Interesting information!!!

18

I love heavy metal!!!

by ironsnake656 in

probably you noticed that my avatar is a photo of steve harris, bassist of iron maiden.

i have quite a few years that i started to listen this kind of music, even when i was in the jwland.

although it was a "no-no" in the borders of jwland, i knew a lot of brothers and sisters that listened and loved this kind of music.

ironsnake656

Regarding lyrics, there are a lot of songs with religious themes. i.e. The Number of the Beast of Iron Maiden first verses are taken from the book of Revelation: "Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the Beast with wrath, because he knows the time is short... let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the Beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty six"; the song Creeping Death of Metallica is talking about the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt by means of plagues, specially the last one (firstborns killings).