Posts by cognisonance

51

"We don't believe only JWs will survive Armageddon, only Jehovah can read hearts" - Logic Fallacies by JWs (or us)?

by cognisonance in

recently i talked to someone i care about who is in the jw group and stated i feel that believing billions of people are going to die when armegedon comes and only a jws will survive would be unloving of a god.

the response is one that i've also noticed others have experienced.

in short the answer is something like the following: "we don't believe that, only jehovah can read hearts.

cognisonance

And wait theres more:

How We Can Let Jehovah Question Us

What about us? Can we too benefit from the questions recorded in the Bible? Yes, we can! Allowing those questions to make us stop and think can bring us rich spiritual rewards. The penetrating questions in God’s Word contribute to its effectiveness. Indeed, “the word of God . . . exerts power . . . and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb. 4:12) To benefit most, however, we need to direct those questions to ourselves, as if Jehovah were questioning us personally. (Rom. 15:4) Let us consider some examples.

“Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?” (Gen. 18:25) Abraham posed this rhetorical question to Jehovah at the time of God’s judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham considered it unthinkable that Jehovah could ever act unjustly—putting the righteous to death with the wicked. Abraham’s question reflects his deep faith in Jehovah’s righteousness.

Today, some may be inclined to speculate about matters regarding Jehovah’s future judgments, such as who exactly will survive Armageddon or who will receive a resurrection. Rather than allowing such thoughts to disturb us, we can recall Abraham’s question. Knowing Jehovah as a benevolent heavenly Father and having complete confidence in his justice and mercy, as Abraham did, prevents us from wasting time and energy on unnecessary worry, weakening doubt, and useless debate. 1

So the offical JW reasoning seems to be: Just as the flood in Noah's day, being on the spiritual ark (Jehovah's Organizaiton) is the only means a person can get saved. Rest assured that all honesthearted ones have had an opportunity to respond to the good news, and since Jehovah can read hearts he would have already tried to draw every single right hearted person to his organization. Thus all that will be destoryed will deserve it. Any thought beyond this would just result in doubts, so stop thinking critically about it.

Consider the following to support this:

So although Jehovah does not promise that every individual will receive exactly the same opportunity, he does make sure that an opportunity is held out to all honesthearted ones. He will even make sure that those who have never had the occasion to learn about him will be given an opportunity by means of a resurrection to life in a righteous new world.—Acts 24:15. 2

In very direct terms, Jesus stated: “No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him.” (John 6:44) Ultimately, therefore, Jehovah is responsible for drawing people who are “rightly disposed for everlasting life.” (Acts 13:48) God’s spirit can awaken people to their spiritual need. (Matthew 5:3) A disturbed conscience, a desperate quest for hope, or a gripping crisis may lead some to search for God and thus learn about his purpose for mankind.—Mark 7:26-30; Luke 19:2-10. 3(please read my footnote)

All this said, I wonder where JWs (even the elders on my JC when I was DF'd) come up with "Special Pleading" arguments:

"If you try to return to Jehovah and we don't approve you for reinstatement, but you are sincerely trying to come back, Jehovah can still save you should the end come before you're reinstated as only he can read hearts, not us."
"We can't be dogmatic about who will get saved, only Jehovah can read hearts."
"We never said anyone now associated with Jehovah's Organization will not be survive, ultimately it's in Jehovah's hands."

Were any comments like this ever printed in our publications?

1 "Do You Let Jehovah Question You?" Watchtower. 15 April 2010: 14.

2 "Our Readers Ask... Do All Have an Equal Opportunity to Come to Know God?" Watchtower. 1 Aug. 2010: 22.

3 "Multitudes Embrace Jehovah's Worship." Watchtower. 15 Sept. 2005: 8, 9. When reading this article it is clear that the drawing done by God is to "the earthly part of Jehovah's organization." It also states, "Jehovah is gathering and training a great multinational crowd of true worshippers. This international group has the happy prospect of surviving the approaching end of this wicked system of things and living on into a righteous new world"

51

"We don't believe only JWs will survive Armageddon, only Jehovah can read hearts" - Logic Fallacies by JWs (or us)?

by cognisonance in

recently i talked to someone i care about who is in the jw group and stated i feel that believing billions of people are going to die when armegedon comes and only a jws will survive would be unloving of a god.

the response is one that i've also noticed others have experienced.

in short the answer is something like the following: "we don't believe that, only jehovah can read hearts.

cognisonance

Found this, which states the inverse explicitly:

Lives Are at Stake!

1 The Bible makes clear Jehovah’s will “that all sorts of men should be saved.” However, it is also true that the life prospects of earth’s billions depend upon their attitude toward Jehovah God and his Kingdom by Jesus Christ. A proper attitude can be based only on “accurate knowledge of truth.” [which we all know they are refering to Jehovah's Organization] (1 Tim. 2:3, 4) While giving notice that soon the earth will be cleansed of all wickedness in order to make way for God’s new world of righteousness, we have also been commissioned to carry on a vital lifesaving work.—Matt. 24:14; 28:19, 20; Rom. 10:13-15.

2 Why So Urgent? Jesus gave warning about a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.” (Matt. 24:21) That tribulation will reach its climax at Armageddon. (Rev. 16:16) The masses of people facing annihilation if they fail to respond to the good news include our unbelieving relatives, neighbors, workmates, schoolmates, and acquaintances. But our concern is to reach out to “all sorts of men” in imitation of God, who manifested his love for the entire world of mankind by giving his Son, Jesus Christ, as a ransom for all. (John 3:16) We must zealously endeavor to invite all to flee to God’s place of safety. By fully carrying out the preaching work, we can avoid bloodguilt.—Ezek. 33:1-7; 1 Cor. 9:16. 1

This article makes no "Special Pleading" logic fallacies. It makes no room for "but jehovah can read hearts, we can't be dogmatic about who will or won't get saved." It makes no room for "we don't really know who is going to be saved for sure, we just have to make it there to find out", etc, etc.

1 "Lives Are at Stake!" Our Kingdom Ministry. Sept. 2000: 1.

30

Quoting out of context - ever justified?

by cognisonance in

jw literature on subjects such as creation vs. evolution often quote out of context, with the most recent material (the newest brochures) acknowledging that often those quoted to support the jw viewpoint do believe in evolution nonetheless.

sometimes indeed quotes in jw literature are just outright misquotes, leaving off preceding or succeeding words (or sentences) that would completely alter the meaning of the source sited (i.e.

carl sagans quote, the fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a great designer is indeed a flat out misquote).. .

cognisonance

By the way, the book that defended "quoting out of context", was the infamous creationism book:

The Genesis Flood: The Biblical Record and Its Scientific Implications by Henry M. Morris, John C. Whitcomb (1970, 6th printing)

That book talked about the water vapor canopy theory, attacks Carbon 14 dating, says human footprints were found alongside dinosaurs, and of course states that the flood layed down all the fossil bearing strata geologically speaking, oh, and that the earth is young, not 4.5 billion years old.

51

"We don't believe only JWs will survive Armageddon, only Jehovah can read hearts" - Logic Fallacies by JWs (or us)?

by cognisonance in

recently i talked to someone i care about who is in the jw group and stated i feel that believing billions of people are going to die when armegedon comes and only a jws will survive would be unloving of a god.

the response is one that i've also noticed others have experienced.

in short the answer is something like the following: "we don't believe that, only jehovah can read hearts.

cognisonance

I've been giving this some more thought about the position I am taking (as many others) about the JW literature effectively saying those that do not associate with Jehovah's Organization will not survive Armageddon. Some more info about the fallacy of Denying the Antecedent 1,2 has been very helpful. I am interested in logic fallacies because growing up in this religion, I never fully developed my critical thinking skills as good as I could have.

Back to my original example:

Those who respond favorably to the good news can survive Armageddon and live forever in perfection on a paradise earth.

What we have here (as rephrased below) is a conditional statement. It follows the following form: If P, then Q. P is the Antecedent and Q is the Consequent.

Antecedent: If people respond favorably to the good news,
Consequent: [then] they can survive Armageddon....

If I am guilty of the logic fallacy I am hoping to avoid (denying the antecedent), I would have to come about my inverse statement using the following logic (I provided some examples to more clearly show the problem of denying the antecedent):

If p then q.(If people respond favorably to the good news, then they can survive Armageddon...)

(If people are officially Jehovah's Witnesses, then they were baptised.)

(If I was the axe murder, then I used an axe)

not p. (People aren't responding favorably to the good news.)

(People aren't officially Jehovah's Witnesses.)

(I am not the axe murder)

So, not q. (So, they cannot surive Armageddon.)

(So, they never were baptised.)

(So, I cannot use an axe)

See the problem? A person can be a Baptist, but that doesn't mean he never got baptised. A person may not be the axe murder, but that doesn't mean he can't use an axe. Just the same, a person could not respond to the good news, but that doesn't mean they will not survive Armageddon.

A correct and valid form of a logical argument is denying the consequent (a.k.a. Modus Tollens):

If p then q.(If people repsond favorably to the good news, then they can survive Armageddon...)

(If people are officially Jehovah's Witnesses, then they were baptised.)

(If I was the axe murder, then I used an axe)

not q. (People cannot survive Armageddon.)

(People were never baptised.)

(It has always been physically impossible for me to use an axe)

So, not p. (So, they aren't responding unfavorably to the good news.)

(So, they are not offically Jehovah's Witnesses.)

(So, I was not the axe murder)

So, it's this latter logical argument were I (and others) assert that JWs say the following:

Those who respond favorably unfavorably to the good news can survive die at Armageddon and live forever never live in perfection on a paradise earth.

...and one of Blondie's quotes with more context:

A third requirement is that we be associated with God’s channel, his organization. God has always used an organization. For example, only those in outside the ark in Noah’s day survived died in the Flood, and only those associated unassociated with the Christian congregation in the first century had God’s favor disapproval. (Acts 4:12) Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive reject everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it mistake that organization and serve God as part of an organization not being used by Jehovah. 3

So again, the argument that such texts imply that billions of people are going to die at armageddon and only those part of Jehovah's Organization will survive is a valid one.So now, I'd like to focus on the logic fallacies used by JW literature to apologeticly respond to the concept of a loving god killing 99% of all humans living on earth when the end comes. I've already declared they are guilty of "Special Pleading." Is this a valid assertion? Are there any others?

1 Robert T. Carroll. "Denying the antecedent." The Skeptics Dictionary. 19 Sept. 2012 < http://www.skepdic.com/denyingtheantecedent.html>.

2 Alex Morgan. "Session 5: Overview." PHIL 201.Introduction to Formal Logic. 19 Sept. 2012 <http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~amorgo/teaching/09s_201/files/lecture_05.pdf>

3 "YouCan Live Forever in Paradise on Earth - But How?" Watchtower. 15 Feb. 1983, 12.

51

"We don't believe only JWs will survive Armageddon, only Jehovah can read hearts" - Logic Fallacies by JWs (or us)?

by cognisonance in

recently i talked to someone i care about who is in the jw group and stated i feel that believing billions of people are going to die when armegedon comes and only a jws will survive would be unloving of a god.

the response is one that i've also noticed others have experienced.

in short the answer is something like the following: "we don't believe that, only jehovah can read hearts.

cognisonance

Recently I talked to someone I care about who is in the JW group and stated I feel that believing billions of people are going to die when Armegedon comes and only a JWs will survive would be unloving of a god. The response is one that I've also noticed others have experienced. In short the answer is something like the following: "We don't believe that, only Jehovah can read hearts." Why do some respond this way? This is what I'm trying to understand and examine.

So I start by first looking at wol.jw.org to see what the literature has recently said. Consider the following Watchtower quote:

Jehovah has wisely made sure that the “good news of the kingdom” is proclaimed far and wide, in hundreds of languages. People everywhere are being given the opportunity for survival and salvation. (Matthew 24:14; Psalm 37:34; Philippians 2:12) Those who respond favorably to the good news can survive Armageddon and live forever in perfection on a paradise earth. (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Zephaniah 2:3; Romans 10:13) Is this not what one would expect from a God who is love?—1 John 4:8. 1

Hmm. This statement suggests to me that those that do not respond favorably to the good news that Jehovah's Witnesses preach will not survive Armageddon (the inverse of what they state). Thus, if God destroys them, he is still being loving because he, after all, did warn them.

NOTE: I am aware of the logic fallacy called Denying the Antecedent 2 (or inverse fallacy). However, you will find as you continue reading, that this inverse is indeed what is often taught and believed by Jehovah's Witnesses. If I'm wrong, please correct me and I will happily say my arguemnt here is invalid becuase I then would be Denying the Antecedent. I aim for intellectual honesty!

This has always been problematic for me. I was raised in this religion, but I often thought that had I not been, I probably would never have become one. Why? Likely becuase I would not have taken the religion seriously and probably would not have looked into them. I would likely have not seen them much different than any other non-mainstream religion. In fact, I likely would have been inclined not to gravitate to religion (or spirituality, or metaphysical explanations) at all, favoring scientific explainations for things. I have always wondered, how many people that JWs attempt to preach to feel a similar way (with the not take this religion seriously part, I know many do believe in God). How many really think that not listening means they will die for not responding to the message?

Nonetheless, the article quoted does have the following caveat a few paragraphs earlier:

Only Jehovah is capable of waging a truly just and truly selective war during which righthearted individuals, wherever they may be on earth, will be preserved. (Matthew 24:40, 41; Revelation 7:9, 10, 13, 14) 3

So there is the escape hatch JWs resort to when facing the question: do they believe they are the only ones that will survive Armageddon? I think this is the logic fallacy called Special Pleading 4 . In the link to special pleading it gives the following example:

Yes, I do think that all drunk drivers should go to prison, but your honor, he is my son! He is a good boy who just made a mistake!

Explanation: The mother in this example has applied the rule that all drunk drivers should go to prison. However, due to her emotional attachment to her son, she is fallaciously reasoning that he should be exempt from this rule, because, “he is a good boy who just made a mistake”, which would hardly be considered adequate justification for exclusion from the rule.

Let's change this to use the argument JWs make:

Yes, I do think that all those that respond favorably to the good news will survive Armageddon, it's a loving provision of Jehovah to warn people and give them an oppurtunity to make the steps needed to come to Jehovah's Organization to survive. But wait, I know there must be people out there that truely have a good heart, they just are being mislead, just don't believe what we preach, or have been been turned off to religion and just can't accept any form, etc. Thus, we can't say God won't save these people too as it only makes sense a loving God would.

How does such an emotionally pleading thought have anything to do with the general thought (written or not) of JWs that to survive one must respond favorably to the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses (that responding means taking the steps to come to Jehovah's Organization). I've heard it said if someone starts studying and truly is making a conversation when Armageddon/Great Tribulation comes he will survive. I've heard spoken of me (I'm DF'd) that if I repent and turn around and take steps to return but the end comes before I officially get reinstated, that God could still spare me at Armageddon. Basically the thought is one has to be taking steps to come into the organization. This is how one respnods favorably.

If this wasn't a requirement, and a person could get "saved" based on just having being honest-hearted, then why do JWs bother preaching at all? Why view all other religions and those part of them as divinely marked for destruction? Why say lives are at stake? Why say one could be bloodguilty if he doesn't preach? Why do they liken their work to trying to save people out of a burning building? If God could just save people based on his own assement (which the special pleading suggests), why put so much emphasis on the preaching work being the opportunity for survival?

1 "Armageddon—A Happy Beginning?" Watchtower 1 December 2005: 4-7.

2 Bennet, Bo. "Denying the Antecedent." Logically Fallacious. 19 Sept. 2012 <http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/75-denying-the-antecedent>.

3 "Armageddon—A Happy Beginning?" Watchtower 1 December 2005: 4-7.

4 Bennet, Bo. "Special Pleading." Logically Fallacious. 19 Sept. 2012 <http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/164-special-pleading>.

107

Billions of dead, possibly killed by divine radiation, all of whom will need to be buried... Gerrit Losch predicts the future!

by cedars in

i've finally turned my attentions away from anthony morris iii (just for the time being!

) and done a video about another governing body member... gerrit losch.. in this video, taken from a 2008 talk (given in sydney, australia), gerrit gives us his grim predictions for the future.... .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4bl_hzhjzm.

cognisonance

In addition to the "selective" radiation, in most developed lands, the publuisher to population ratio is ~1:250 (1:1000 worldwide overall). So each JW gets to bury 250-1000 irradiated individuals. Wow, what a pleasant thought. The video talks about the wonderful hope of JW's loved ones being resurrected. Good for them I suppose, until, since i'm no longer a JW anymore but have loved ones still in, will my loved ones have to bury me?

107

Billions of dead, possibly killed by divine radiation, all of whom will need to be buried... Gerrit Losch predicts the future!

by cedars in

i've finally turned my attentions away from anthony morris iii (just for the time being!

) and done a video about another governing body member... gerrit losch.. in this video, taken from a 2008 talk (given in sydney, australia), gerrit gives us his grim predictions for the future.... .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4bl_hzhjzm.

cognisonance

Wow! That is the first time I've heard that "new light." Is there a watchtower article (or other written publication) about it being very possible for God to use "divine radiation" and that JWs will need to bury billions of dead? I've tried searching on wol.jw.org but couldn't find anything about this (perhaps this has been stated before as I don't have the CD with me, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

Question(s): If this is "new light" as it comes from a member of "God's Sole Channel TM " why is it not in a written publicaton, but rather just given as conjecture in a talk? Also, him being a member of "God's Sole Channel TM ," was what he said approved by the rest of the leaders with 2/3 majority vote? If not then it's just speculation (and could explain why it's not in our publications). Perhaps this is why the leaders of JWs don't want members to record and the distribute/discuss such talks.

15

Demons in the house (from yardsales to even digital purchases)

by cognisonance in

consider the popular jw myth: be careful what you bring home from a yard sale, it might have come from someone who has ties with witchcraft, magic, satan, etc.

said item thus would be an instrument the demons can use to get into your home and harass you.

so be careful of that teacup, tennis racket, or shirt you just purchased!.

cognisonance

Blondie: All types of people touch the new products we buy. Reasoning this way would mean we could only buy new things made by other jws....

I like that. Certainly helps with buying innocent items at garage sales, ebay, etc. But what about buying, recording, watching digital content (think downloading to computer, game system, streaming via netfix, DVR, etc). The item need not be about magic or occult. It can simply have violence or sex in it. What about these situations, where the demonized myth morphs to include them?

What it boils down to is: You are letting this house become demonized because you allow yourself to be entertained by things the Watchtower says are the products of Satan. Those things thus are letting the demons in and harass me. If you loved me you wouldn't allow this type of entertainment in our house. Don't you want to protect me?

What do I say to that?

15

Demons in the house (from yardsales to even digital purchases)

by cognisonance in

consider the popular jw myth: be careful what you bring home from a yard sale, it might have come from someone who has ties with witchcraft, magic, satan, etc.

said item thus would be an instrument the demons can use to get into your home and harass you.

so be careful of that teacup, tennis racket, or shirt you just purchased!.

cognisonance

What medications is he taking? Have any of his medications changed recently?

No changes in medications. The ones he is taking wouldn't cause that type of side effects. He has had these fears all his life, back to when he was a kid. While he was growing up, some relatives were into the occult and he would talk about how erie and creepy it was to spend time over those family members' homes. So the JW myth was one he could easily embrace.

Just trust me, this isn't a medical/health problem. It's a long-term ingrained superstitous fear coupled with JW conscientious avoidance of anything that is implied to be satanic by the Watchtower.

15

Demons in the house (from yardsales to even digital purchases)

by cognisonance in

consider the popular jw myth: be careful what you bring home from a yard sale, it might have come from someone who has ties with witchcraft, magic, satan, etc.

said item thus would be an instrument the demons can use to get into your home and harass you.

so be careful of that teacup, tennis racket, or shirt you just purchased!.

cognisonance

out4good: From what I can tell, this isn't just a tactic to impose one's conscious on another. He rely believes this happens. In the past he threw out items he bought at a yardsale becuase he had a bad dream the following night.

VM44: Agreed, but how do you reason with someone that "no fititious demons need be involved?" As regards medical condition, every thing checks out okay, so that can't be a factor.

FinallyAwake: The problem with the "demon blocker" answer is that it would be lying. I would have been better off, just saying, no I didn't watch, buy, or download a movie like what you are asking about. I respect my father, I don't want to lie to him.