Posts by cognisonance

95

What was it about Bethel that woke you up?

by cognisonance in

jw
friends

one the how many exbethelites thread it was mentioned that some think one either leaves down the path towards apostasy or as a 100% true believer.

i'm curious what experiences did you face at bethel that woke you up (or started to at least)?.

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cognisonance

LeavingWT, that is interesting. So if one has a legitimate concern, notices that something is being done wrong, or that someone is wronging you, one has no recourse? After, trying to address the problem with the specific individual (supposing someone wronged you), couldn't you "go to the elders" in your local congreation like Jehovah's Witnesses are encuragaged to do?

I knew a few ex-bethelites, including a special pioneer couple that I was friends with. They are 100% ture believers, however. But he did tell me some of the things he went thru and he mentioned to me that people need to be spiritually strong to go to bethel because many get there and think, "how can this be God's organization."

The husband had to endure debilitating work routines that he physically was having a hard time with. He wasn't a small guy, but thought the work he was doing should require two men due to the heavy lifting nature, not one. I believe he was granted some time off to recover and get medical treatment but was almost kicked out the door for not being able to do his assignment. The whole time he was "off" he was constantly under pressure to get back to work ASAP and feared getting the axe. I hope I'm not miss-remembering what he told me as the exact details are foggy. Nonetheless, this example and others he told me painted a very different picture of Bethel to me than I had previously.

I also remember hearing about some bethelites visiting Alcatraz on Vacation and noticed a sign stating the rules of the prision and remarking, hey that's like Bethel...

95

What was it about Bethel that woke you up?

by cognisonance in

jw
friends

one the how many exbethelites thread it was mentioned that some think one either leaves down the path towards apostasy or as a 100% true believer.

i'm curious what experiences did you face at bethel that woke you up (or started to at least)?.

.

cognisonance

One the How many exBethelites thread it was mentioned that some think one either leaves down the path towards apostasy or as a 100% true believer. I'm curious what experiences did you face at Bethel that woke you up (or started to at least)?

42

TV Ministry a No Go for Watchtower Society....ever wonder why?

by Terry in

pastor russell had 20 million readers of his newspaper columns worldwide and as many eager students of his topical bible study, studies in the scriptures.. he advertised for 1000 preachers to sell his books door to door!.

the photo drama of creation wowed 9 million people in the early 1914 synchronizing film, hand colored frames and phonograph recordings.. state of the art!.

judge rutherford availed himself of victrola recordings of "religion is a snare and a racket!

cognisonance

Part one of heritage on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzfU_vCwqSo

18

Watchtower investments

by DATA-DOG in

ok, i am not a wiz at anything math related or investment related.

i get a headache from having to understand legalese.

i am i staight up handshake is my bond type.

cognisonance

This is one of the first "apostate" claims I came across here and on JwFacts (back when I was lurking years ago) that I gave a lot of thought to, probably because I was beginning to think about investing at that time myself (so I was learning about investments).

I also don' think the investments made by the Watchtower really matter much. One of the best ways to invest (in my opinion) is in index funds. By definition index funds try to mimic the entire investible market (or some broad segment of it) (i.e. Total US Stock Index, S&P 500, etc). Both these indexes hold Phillip Morris (tobacoo/cigarettes). Even if one doesn't invest in index funds, most large stock funds will include Phillip Morris.

I don't really see holding thousands or hundreds of companies, and having a few that are "immoral" would be much differnet than an employee working at a grocery store and sometimes has to check out customers that buy cigarettes. The latter example is "approved" by the org.

That said, if they turn around and judge the Catholic Church or other religions for investing in said companies in a manor similar to the way the JW organization does, then, well, ... that is a problem, I would agree! But only a problem for being hypocritical, not for there being some intrinsitc issue with investing in funds that have a small handful of defense/tabacoo/etc companies.

After all, if one is going to get all worked up and say they shouldn't invest in broad market funds because of the defense/tabacoo companies, then perhaps they shouldn't invest at all since it would be in "the comericial aspect of satan's system", full of "greedy companies." Maybe a slippery slope arguement, but I just think WT investments is a non-issue.

18

Governing Body's Lawyers Unconsciously Driven To Giving Destructive Advice To The Corporation's CEO

by frankiespeakin in

concider:.

they very well could have a repressed loathing for the watchtower and for what it is doing to young children(pedofile and blood issues), families, the old, and even themselves, but because of situation they are in they are forced to suppress it all in the shadow.. so the unconscious(or substitute god for the word unconscious because the unconscious is a far bigger player than ego consciousness), so then the unconscious which according to evolution favors survival and survival of the species is favored even higher i would think, so that at times the unconscious may make a move that trumps ego drives and may lead to an action that puts the "individual" in harms way(kills) but it does so for the good of the larger whole or the "species".

kinda like the mythological one man dying for the whole species of mankind, one example in mythology is jesus christ, among others.. these myths explain many things about what goes on inside a man imo.. more next post.

cognisonance

So sorry to get hung up. I've been learning about evolution recently, but you are right, let's stick to the idea:

The possiblity of the unconscious overiding the ego, and causing bad advice to be given unconsciously by the Governing Body's legal team

Has there historically ever been cases of people giving bad advice unconsiously to protect the greater good? Seems like a hard hypothesis to test. Interesting question though, I admit.

18

Governing Body's Lawyers Unconsciously Driven To Giving Destructive Advice To The Corporation's CEO

by frankiespeakin in

concider:.

they very well could have a repressed loathing for the watchtower and for what it is doing to young children(pedofile and blood issues), families, the old, and even themselves, but because of situation they are in they are forced to suppress it all in the shadow.. so the unconscious(or substitute god for the word unconscious because the unconscious is a far bigger player than ego consciousness), so then the unconscious which according to evolution favors survival and survival of the species is favored even higher i would think, so that at times the unconscious may make a move that trumps ego drives and may lead to an action that puts the "individual" in harms way(kills) but it does so for the good of the larger whole or the "species".

kinda like the mythological one man dying for the whole species of mankind, one example in mythology is jesus christ, among others.. these myths explain many things about what goes on inside a man imo.. more next post.

cognisonance

I know you are talking about evolutionary physcology, which is okay per se. I was just trying to bring out two points:

1) That it is very easy to come up with what Stephen J. Gould called "Just-So-Stories" that darwinize every aspect of human behavior without any evidence to support the story. This is where I threw in the cautionary note. I agree that all human behavior evolved, but what caused it to happen in many areas of behavior is still unknown. For these areas, there is no end to conjecture.

2) I'll admit that perhaps it was a bit unwarrented for me to say your premise may be false. I realize there is more to evolutionary therory than "Natural Selection." It isn't the only process going on. Sexual Selection also exists (which is it's own entity, not a subcategory of natural selection). "Group selection," or some varient of it, is what you seem to be thinking about here. From what I can tell this is a controversal theory since it seems contradictory to natural selection. But what do I know, maybe they are complimentary. Time for me to do some more reading...

18

Governing Body's Lawyers Unconsciously Driven To Giving Destructive Advice To The Corporation's CEO

by frankiespeakin in

concider:.

they very well could have a repressed loathing for the watchtower and for what it is doing to young children(pedofile and blood issues), families, the old, and even themselves, but because of situation they are in they are forced to suppress it all in the shadow.. so the unconscious(or substitute god for the word unconscious because the unconscious is a far bigger player than ego consciousness), so then the unconscious which according to evolution favors survival and survival of the species is favored even higher i would think, so that at times the unconscious may make a move that trumps ego drives and may lead to an action that puts the "individual" in harms way(kills) but it does so for the good of the larger whole or the "species".

kinda like the mythological one man dying for the whole species of mankind, one example in mythology is jesus christ, among others.. these myths explain many things about what goes on inside a man imo.. more next post.

cognisonance

...the unconscious which according to evolution favors survival and survival of the species is favored even higher i would think, so that at times the unconscious may make a move that trumps ego drives and may lead to an action that puts the "individual" in harms way(kills) but it does so for the good of the larger whole or the "species"

I don't wish to be a debbie downer...

Natural selection is about surviving to reproduce. The two are intrinsically related, it's not merely about survival.

I'm pretty sure that natural selection does not support the notion that survival (and ongoing reproduction) of the species is more favored than survival (and reproduction) of the individual. In fact, I think it allows for just the opposite, that evolution does not happen to bring positive adaptations to a species when by doing so it has no direct reproductive benefit to the individual.

(NOTE: You are of course talking about physcology instead of biolgy, which I'm not so sure extrapolating from bilogical evolution explainations for physcological behavior is always apropos.)

In fact, the opposite can and does happen. Something that brings a direct benefit to the individual (reproductively) can be detrimental to the whole of the species. For example, lions do hunt in groups (this insures survival and increases chances of reproduction), yet when intruding males displace resident males from a social group, the intruders kill all the young ones. Is such behavior in latter situation beneficial to the species? No. It could even lead to causing the species to risk extinction if endangered. But it does have a direct reproductive benefit to the individual.

I bring this up since your premise might be based on a false assumption. Altruistic behavior does happen in the framework of natural selection, but it always has strings attached, that helping or sacrificing, ultimately increases the individual's chances of surviving and reproducing.

58

Just Sharing: I Visited Chuck Taze Russells Gravesite

by daringhart13 in

just nothing more than a 'share'..... i was in pittsburgh on business and took a day off and paid a visit to russells grave.. i haven't stopped laughing since.

i'm worried i'm going to break ribs.. had i seen this as a young kid/adult.....i surely would have thought "wtf???".

folks...if you ever needed confirmation this whole thing is a laughable cult......make your way to pittsburgh and see chuck's resting spot.......its worth it just get pictures with his pyramid.. lol.

cognisonance

This is one of the reasons that the society have distanced themselves from Charles Russell. They now say that the gov body was only around from 1919 onwards, so anyone who said anything earlier than that was not representing God and did not have his spirit backing them.

So I think now that any of us who expose Russell's words and deeds, will not get anywhere with a JW, as he is now not thought of now as anyone special. Just one of many who had certain ideas about the bible. Some things he said were true and other things were complete rubbish.

This is new to me. I'm now out, but I did hear of the FDS = GB change, but didn't catch (or realize) that it changed from meaning the FDS was around only from 1919 on, and thus exluded Russel.

That does sound very convienent. Did motives for the change include trying to distance themselves from Russel? I'm not sure. Is there any evidence for this? Didn't they come out a few years ago with a video about their history that talked alot about Russel and his key role in starting the religion? Do you really think they will now say that Jehovah wasn't "spirit-directing" Russel? If that really is what they are saying now, then well that is fascinating indeed!

34

The Governing Body Rewrites the Organizations Past and Future History

by Cameron_Don in

jw
friends

watchtower annual meeting report.

october 6, 2012. during their annual meeting the governing body announced some changes in their interpretation of (1) the most important scripture in watch-tower theology, and (2) the most important event in watchtower history.

are their changes new light according to proverbs, or refinement according to daniel and malachi?

cognisonance

So let me get this right.

Jesus needs to later inspect the Governing Body's faithfulness in dispensing spiritual food, food he directs them to give out.

This prompts the question: How does one know if the GB is teaching the truth? How does she know they are really giving people Jesus' direction? Thus, how does one know that JWs represent God's one and only spirit-directed organization?

Maybe the new teaching addresses these questions, but they are the ones my mind first puts up. I don't believe in the Bible so all this is just a hypothetical thought exercise for me.

70

Reaching Loved Ones Stuck in a Cult: An Idea for Discussion

by 00DAD in

you may have heard the expression: "the map is not the territory.

" have you ever thought about how this idea may help you reach your loved ones stuck in a cult?

the phrase has been attributed to polish-american scientist and philosopher alfred korzybski.

cognisonance

For movies, The Island is good at highlighting cognitive dissonance and beliving something that isn't true. The Shunning is also really good for showing how unloving shunning is. The Matrix and Shawshank Redemption (the later for dealing with the effects of institutionalization) are good too, but not all JWs would be willing to watch those due to the rating.