I think the GB are realising after their consultation with worldly expertise that to survive they need to become more mainstream and less hard and rigid in a lot of areas like beards etc.
I expect a lot of changes to come.
notsurewheretogo
JoinedPosts by notsurewheretogo
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Again, More confusion about the direction of the Watchtower Society
by Truth and Justice inhi friends, i have not been on this board in awhile, and i would like to get some thoughts from some of you.
i have noticed a change within my 4 siblings in approximately the last year and a half to 2 years regarding their communication with my mother and i. they have either phoned us, texted, emailed, or written a letter or card to us.
the conversation has been good, and on any topic that comes to mind.
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144
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
You seem to ignore the whole "Jehovah judges" piece and the whole point of Armageddon hasn't changed. Don't get why you think it means what you think when there is zero change to that.
The article literally is clear Jehovah judges at Armageddon and 99% of the population will be deemed unrighteous. JW's and now those that react during the Great Tribulation may get through.
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Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
The change in one sentence is:
"JW's used to believe you had to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon, now JW's believe baptised JW's and some who react favourably during the Great Tribulation may get saved meaning exJW's, or family members of JW' etc no longer HAVE to die prior to Armageddon to ensure they are in paradise as they now can react to the events of the Great Tribulation favourably and be saved".
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144
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
Notsure, can you explain, if the change isn’t that non believers will survive Armageddon comparable to how non believers in general will be resurrected -
Then can you succinctly explain what do you think is the change?I thought I have done this many times?
Non believers will not survive Armageddon period. Jehovah will judge everyone at Armageddon and if you are not a follower you are executed. Nothing changes there.
Non believers get a resurrection if they die before Armageddon (unless really bad or opposer of Jehovah). Again no change there.
The change is simple. They taught, the old light you HAD to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon if you were still alive. As soon as the Great Tribulation started that was it. This old doctrine resulted in JW's wishing their unbelieving family members to die (not at the hands of Jehovah) prior to Armageddon ensuring they would be one of the unrighteous resurrected.
The new light is your unbelieving family members do not need to die before Armageddon to be saved IF they react favourably and turn to Jehovah during the Great Tribulation. Even though the GT has started it is not too late for your unbelieving family members to become believers during the GT and survive Armageddon.
Thus your unbelieving family members now have two routes to paradise. Die before Armageddon as previously OR now react during the Great Tribulation and become a believer and the new light is Jehovah may save them.
Jehovah will still judge and execute all unbelievers who refused the message and do not react to the events of the Great Tribulation and turn to Jehovah. All slain at Armageddon get no resurrection.
That's the change.
If unbelievers die before or not they have the same chance to get into the 1000yr reign as long as they are not really really bad.
No this is NOT true. See above, it is simply they have another chance and that chance is they respond to the Great Tribulation and become believers BEFORE Armageddon.
Unbelievers only chance to survive Armageddon is to die before it starts or respond to events of the Great Tribulation and become a believer...if they do not respond to the events of the GT they are executed as a goat.
NOTHING has changed in the context of Jehovah executing all unbelievers at Armageddon so this billions have the same chance at Armageddon as they would dying prior to Armageddon is not what the article states.
At Armageddon only JW's and those who react to the events of the GT get through. Then there is the resurrection of all unrighteous who died prior to Armageddon (and the slain billions at Armageddon are not in this group who are resurrected as all executed by Jehovah is a final judgement) THEN there is the final judgment at the end of the 1000 year reign.
The new light and article does not change any of this bar the bit about those reacting to GT events after the GT starts and they may get saved through Armageddon.
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VAT4956 - 530 BC destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar
by jwposter inin my studies, i have concluded that year 530 bc was when the destruction of jerusalem occurred and the temple destroyed.
i had determined this prior to investigation of vat4956.
i had already found that the jubilees, sabbaticals, courses of the priests, and chronology attested to this.
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notsurewheretogo
I appreciate the effort here from Jethro, this may be hard to follow for some but indeed important to show the nonsense of 607.
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Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
Nah dude I've been here for years and POMO!
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144
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
But the contradiction is they told us we don’t have to wish these ones would die beforehand but the same time they indicated it would be better for them to die before?
Yes because they can react to the Great Tribulation and still pass through, just no need to have to hope family die before Armageddon.
14 At times, we hear someone say, “It would almost be better if my relative dies before the great tribulation begins so that there is hope for his resurrection.” There are surely kind motives behind such expressions. But a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die.
Its all about those who are familiar with the message. That's your context here.
And thus I am correct to say this is a contradiction to telling JWs not to wish their unbelieving loved ones die beforehand because they have the same chance no matter when they die.
Not quite as they still have to respond favourably during the Great Tribulation to have that chance. And that seems a harder thing to do that die before Armageddon?
we should agree that the GB are making it up as they along and we have caught them out in an obvious contradiction.
Indeed and that is why I left 12 years but the stuff they have been producing recently, like this change, is just batshit crazy for sure.
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Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
The article states:
But a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die. Jehovah is the perfect Judge—he renders just and righteous decisions.
All it is saying is your unbelieving family member doesn't need to die BEFORE Armageddon to still have a chance to get through. It doesn't matter WHEN they die in context of Armageddon because Jehovah will judge them perfectly depending on how they react to the Great Tribulation.
If they respond during the Great Tribulation then they may pass through and thus do not need to die before Armageddon to have that chance to be in the paradise.
Old light was for non JW's there was one route to paradise....die before Armageddon...now there are two routes to paradise for unbelievers...die before Armageddon OR respond during the Great Tribulation and be judged worthy.
Thus the conclusion is these types of people their eternal future doesn't reside on having to die before Armageddon.
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144
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
Do you agree that this is contradictory? On the one hand it sounds like it is better for unbelievers to die before Armageddon than to be alive during.
Well that is true though to some degree. If an unbeliever dies before Armageddon they have a 100% chance of coming back unless an opposer or really bad like Hitler which is unlikely they are that bad.
But if Armageddon comes and they are still alive but a non JW they have to rely on reacting to the events of the Great Tribulation, turn to Jehovah and follow him and hope he judges them worthy. Which of the two routes to paradise is easier? Probably dying before Armageddon starts.
Thus it will be easier if they died but now the new light is that is not the only chance for them to pass through.
Hence WHEN they die is not the only route for these ones to survive Armageddon.
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144
Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions
by slimboyfat ini’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.
from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.
there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.
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notsurewheretogo
So someone with unbelieving loved ones, they are good people but for whatever reason don’t ever want to become JWs. THEY DO NOT RESPOND during the Great Tribulation,.
They are judged and executed at Armageddon as per the article and like they have always taught.
You still think if they died before Armageddon they would have a chance at the 1000 yr reign but they would be slaughtered by Jeh all because the time they died was inconvenient?
I don't know where you are getting this from as it is not what I say.
If the unbeliever died before Armageddon they come back in the paradise. Old light was they are dead at Armageddon if they were still alive when it starts new light is they have a chance to pass through Armageddon if they respond favorably to the events of the Great Tribulation.
The new light is simply NOT JUST JW's may survive Armageddon as that is old light, now JW's AND some who respond to the Great Tribulation may pass through.
Nothing more than that. I'm not saying anything more than that as that is simply what the article says.
But my points are also clear that the new light clearly says it makes no difference the time someone dies to if they get a shot at the 1000yr reign.
This is correct if they die normally, but if they die at being judged and executed by Jehovah they are dead forever. Being executed at Armageddon means no second chance, that has not changed ever.
The no difference to when someone dies is there chance to get into paradise. Old light was a non believer HAD to die before Armageddon to get into paradise. Now there is two chances! Die before Armageddon OR respond favorably to the Great Tribulation.
Hence why WHEN they die is not the only route into paradise for those who have heard the message and chose not to be a JW when the Great Tribulation starts. Old light was JW's just hoped their family members who were not JWs died so they would get a resurrection...now they don't need to hope they die before Armageddon but simply respond to the events of the Great Tribulation.