Posts by notsurewheretogo

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

You haven't refuted any. I posted links to the articles showing Jehovah still judges and you ignored, I posted the context of the one quote you provided and you ignored.

You take one sentence and twist it to mean something else.

Billions will still die at Armageddon according to this change.

The simplest refute is that you keep believing the old light that it would be better if your unrighteous loved ones died before Armageddon.

Not once have I said ever. I've merely explained Jehovah will still judge and execute most but the WT are simply saying that some non JW's may respond during the Great Tribulation and be saved through Armageddon and thus JW's do not need now to hope their unbelieving family die before Armageddon as if they respond during the Great Tribulation they have that chance too.

That is all I've ever said because that is what the article says.

We agree that pretty much everyone who ever died throughout history will get a chance at the 10000 yr reign unless they were really really bad?

This is true and has not changed at all, it has not changed in the article, it has always been the case everyone who dies unless really bad or an opposer comes back.

The change is some people other than JW's may survive Armageddon based on Jehovah judging them as they respond to the events of the Great Tribulation.

This is NOT billions of people.

The simple change is:

OLD LIGHT: You MUST be a JW to survive Armageddon

NEW LIGHT: Some non JW's may survive Armageddon (those who react favourably during the Great Tribulation or those that would respond to the preaching but never had a chance to hear it)

THAT IS THE CHANGE AND NOTHING ELSE

The impact to a JW who has non believing family is you do NOT need to hope your unbelieving family die prior to Armageddon, they can react favourably during the Great Tribulation and still pass through Armageddon hence it doesn't matter WHEN your unbelieving family member dies now, they have a chance to pass through IF judged by Jehovah AFTER they respond to the events of the Great Tribulation.

You IGNORE all these points.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

Listener...MikeJW is a troll. He has ignored all the explanation and facts I've provided from the actual article and still just spews utter nonsense on the change. He has not once refuted any of my points.

Billions surviving Armageddon is simply incorrect, that is not the change.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

Slim, what on earth is wrong with you? Where on earth does it say "resurrected and current non JWs to be treated the same"????? Have you read the article in question?

The new teaching is NOT that people still need "come into the truth" to be saved at Armageddon. The new teaching is some who are not JW's MAY, just MAY, be saved depending on how Jehovah judges them and how they react during the Great Tribulation.

This applies to those who are acquainted with the message who had rejected it initially but during the Great Tribulation have a change of heart and those who have never heard it but are judged by Jehovah to be righteous (like those in the Amazon rainforests etc)

Why is this article so hard to understand when it has changed little?

The real change is that JW's used to say once the Great Tribulation starts that is the door closed for anyone else to be saved and now with this change they are saying it is possible some may have a change of heart during the Great Tribulation and still be saved...or that some may be saved because they never heard the message but would have reacted favourably so Jehovah may save them too...the WT are saying they can no longer be dogmatic on that.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

Jesus H Fecking Christ can you read? The paragraph you refer to is:

10 Will all who die during the events of the great tribulation be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection? The Scriptures make it clear that outright opposers whom Jehovah and his forces will destroy at Armageddon will not be resurrected. (2 Thess. 1:6-10) But what about others, for example, who may die from natural causes, from accidents, or at the hand of other humans? (Eccl. 9:11; Zech. 14:13) Could some of these people be among the “unrighteous” who will be resurrected in the new world? We simply do not know.

Note the bold part!!! This is talking about people who die during the GT and the Big A but NOT at the hands of Jehovah via his judgement...if they die do they get a chance? The article says maybe and that they maybe part of the unrighteous who gets resurrected after the Big A.

Nowhere in the article does it ever say that wicked destroyed at Big A by Jehovah get a second chance. If they are destroyed by Jehovah they have been judged and executed at the Big A and no second chance.

The very few who die before the Big A who DO NOT get a resurrection are the opposers and very wicked you mention.

Where on earth are you getting your interpretation from because it is not this article?

Read the bloody article properly!

Your second point is from these two paragraphs:

12 Even after the great tribulation starts, it is possible that some who see the destruction of “Babylon the Great” will recall that Jehovah’s Witnesses had long spoken of this event. Might some who see these events have a change of heart?—Rev. 17:5; Ezek. 33:33.
13 Such an outcome would be similar to what occurred in Egypt in Moses’ day. Recall that “a vast mixed company” joined Israel in the Exodus. Some of these individuals may have started to develop faith when they saw that Moses’ warnings about the Ten Plagues came true. (Ex. 12:38) If a similar development should occur following the destruction of Babylon the Great, would we be disappointed that people were able to join us shortly before the end comes? Of course not! We want to reflect the personality of our heavenly Father, “a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth.” b—Ex. 34:6.

This refers to, as bold part shows, those that have heard or associated with JW's like exJW's or family of JW's that know the message. They may now turn to Jehoover during the GT and potentially be saved.

This is NOT a billion people conversion. It's just softening the stance that once the GT starts that is it for exJW's of families of JWs.

MikeJW why are you ignoring all my points on Jehoover judging people which shows my posts are correct and highlights your interpretation is wrong.

The current belief with this adjustment is:

1) Jehovah will save all JWs

2) Some non JWs may turn to Jehovah during the GT and be saved

3) Some who die at the hands of natural forces or humans during the GT but before the executed judgement at the Big A may get a second chance

4) Dying before the Big A for non JW's is not necessarily the only chance they have as they may be judged favourably if they respond during the GT and before Armageddon

5) Jehovah will still judge all people at the Big A and now JW's and the few ex JWs who have been judged by Jehovah favourably get through

That's it.

MikeJW you are literally taking one sentence in isolation, ignoring all the context and saying that billions of wicked get through Armageddon which is just nonsense.

You are simply ignoring those executed by Jehovah at Armageddon do not ever get a second chance which are the billions at Armageddon.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

NOTE the sentence: "we can be confident that “the Judge of all the earth” will do what is right"

Jehovah JUDGES those at Big A and if those that are not baptised but are deemed to want to turn to JW have a chance to be saved but no-one can say for definite who.

NOTE the context of the phrase "But a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die."? What precedes it is: "It would almost be better if my relative dies before the great tribulation begins so that there is hope for his resurrection.” There are surely kind motives behind such expressions."

The context of the phrase about "a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die" is about those wanting family members to die before the Big A (or those not heard their preaching work).

NOW note the sentence on Jehovah being a judge...which occurs at the Big A!

How on earth can you think when they say "But a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die." means EVERY person gets through the Big A without being judged is utterly preposterous.

The article clearly says there is a judging...it is just they are not so dogmatic in that it will be JUST JW's that get through. Rather they are saying JW's and some non JWs who have a good heart or those who have a good heart who haven't heard the good news may get through.

AND therefore JW dubs shouldn't wish that their family die before the Big A as Jehoover may still get them through IF they are judged worthy.

It really isn't that hard to understand.

Note the next paragraph:

Through our study of the Bible, we have come to know just how much Jehovah values human life. He gave his Son’s life so that all of us may have the prospect of living forever. (John 3:16) We have all felt Jehovah’s tender affection. (Isa. 49:15) He knows each of us by name. In fact, he knows us so well as individuals that should we die, he can re-create every unique detail and restore every memory that makes us who we are! (Matt. 10:29-31) Surely, we have good reason to be confident that our loving heavenly Father will judge each individual in a perfectly balanced, righteous, and merciful way.—Jas. 2:13.

There is a still a judging of every person at the Big A and nothing has changed there! Most will perish according to their current doctrine, it is now just some not JW's get through based on Jehovah the perfect judge etc.

The whole three paragraphs are trying to help JW dubs NOT wish their unbelieving family dead (or those not ever heard the preaching) now so they get through the Big A as the only previous way to get into paradise if not a JW was to die prior to the Big A.

Now they don't and simply rely on Jehoover the judge and they are simply softening their previous very dogmatic stance.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

Here are the two paragraphs:

14 At times, we hear someone say, “It would almost be better if my relative dies before the great tribulation begins so that there is hope for his resurrection.” There are surely kind motives behind such expressions. But a person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die. Jehovah is the perfect Judge—he renders just and righteous decisions. (Read Psalm 33:4, 5.) We can be confident that “the Judge of all the earth” will do what is right.—Gen. 18:25.

15 It is also reasonable to conclude that a person’s eternal future does not depend on where he happens to live. It is unthinkable that Jehovah would automatically label as “goats” millions of people who live in lands where they never had an opportunity to respond to the Kingdom message. (Matt. 25:46) The righteous Judge of all the earth cares even more about these individuals than we ever could. We do not know how Jehovah will maneuver events during the great tribulation. Perhaps some of these people will have an opportunity to learn about Jehovah, put faith in him, and take their stand on Jehovah’s side when he sanctifies himself before all nations.—Ezek. 38:16.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

But you are not right because the new light says now you don’t have to wish your unrighteous loved ones die beforehand, if they are alive during Armageddon they will have the same chance as if they died before

BASED ON THEIR HEART CONDITION OF THE FAMILY MEMBER!!!!

It DOES NOT mean EVERY person alive at the Big A survives. The "chance" is based on a righteous heart.

Stop trolling.

Understand the phrase "person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die" in CONTEXT that the WT was referring to the desire of JW's wanting their family to die before Big A so they get a chance in the paradise. That is the context and the heart condition and Jehovah judging these ones at the Big A still applies!

Sheesh!

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

You guys are wrong, you are reading it incorrectly. I've put what the new light means many times in here clearly but you are twisting it to mean something else.

I don't know how else to put it clearly.

Mikejw keeps quoting: "person’s eternal future does not depend on when he happens to die"

This is now true, it used to be die before the Big A and you come back but if alive during the Big A and not a baptised JW you are dead forever and hence why many JW's wanted their unbelieving family members to die prior to the Big A. Remember this is talking about death NOT death at the hands of a god.

The new light is simply saying that some that are currently unrighteous during the Big A may not get killed by Jesus but rather come through the Big A BECAUSE OF THEIR HEART CONDITION.

So instead of a hard and fast "you ain't a baptised JW at the Big A your dead" it is now "you are not a baptised JW during the Big A but you may be saved if Jehoover deems your heart as righteous."

I'm not sure why you are missing that Jehoover still applies this criteria to those that go through the Big A. That criteria is still applied but no longer applies JUST to baptised JW's.

It really is that simple and doesn't mean billions of non JWs get saved at the Big A.

It simply means JW's gets saved at the Big A PLUS some who have the right heart condition.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

A persons eternal future depends on their heart condition...if they die before the Big A they are guaranteed a resurrection.

If they are alive during the Big A they are reliant on the mercy of Jehoover and reading of their heart.

This doesn't equate to billions passing through Armageddon.

Not sure what you guys are smoking.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

notsurewheretogo

But it is clearly not as it makes the Big A pointless.