Posts by Elephant

52

Watchtower Dishonesty

by Vanderhoven7 in

jw
friends

just re-discovered this gem:.

"it is a matter of fact that the history of the watchtower society is riddled with failed date-setting and abandoned doctrine,1 and the society has gone to great lengths to hide this past from its members.

older (incriminating) watchtower publications are virtually impossible to obtain through the society,2 while at the same time members are overwhelmed with "current" watchtower material.. the watchtower society has even gone as far as to publish disinformation about its own history in an attempt to convince readers that watchtower doctrine has remained consistent over the years, and that the society is not a false prophet.

Elephant

christ alone - “But, is it true you have never published a biography of Pastor Russell? … That’s right.

...so this proves that...the watchtower DID write a biography of Russell years before...

sherilyn-

"It is because of my love for others that I do read some of the articles," -

...sherilyn...so that i may follow your line of thinking...you WON'T read the magazines for the purpose that they are intended, but you WILL read them anyways because you love others...

...i can assure you that when you curl up by the fireplace with watchtower in hand your loved ones are not getting the message...is it any wonder that they won't stop asking you when will you get back to the JWs?

52

Watchtower Dishonesty

by Vanderhoven7 in

jw
friends

just re-discovered this gem:.

"it is a matter of fact that the history of the watchtower society is riddled with failed date-setting and abandoned doctrine,1 and the society has gone to great lengths to hide this past from its members.

older (incriminating) watchtower publications are virtually impossible to obtain through the society,2 while at the same time members are overwhelmed with "current" watchtower material.. the watchtower society has even gone as far as to publish disinformation about its own history in an attempt to convince readers that watchtower doctrine has remained consistent over the years, and that the society is not a false prophet.

Elephant

They are so twisted and wicked...have always said that when I can read a WT or Awake that didn't have a lie I would go to a meeting..it has been almost 9 years and counting.

-sherilyn,

'wicked'?

why have you spent the last 9 years (and counting) reading 'wicked' literature?

...here is a thought...stop reading 'wicked' literature...

68

They STILL might be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher in

big news - i met with the elders last night.

they were not arrogant and they were not mean spirited, but of course we all know they also would not budge from the jw brainwashed beliefs they are sworn to uphold.

i let my light shine, and within two minutes of sitting down with them was no longer nervous.. .

Elephant

I may or may not even attend the next one of these if there is one...I have done what I set out to do, so I'm not sure what point it would serve

-

...there you go...now you are making perfect sense...

150

They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher in

well i figured i should give you all an update.

they will be dfing me soon for apostasy.

it is not a huge surprise and i am not afraid nor "shaking in my boots", however i will admit it is stressful right now.

Elephant

So simple isn't it .... scripture does not say comes AGAIN!

Thanks Elephant for that eye opener!

-

no clarity, it does not...

68

They STILL might be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher in

big news - i met with the elders last night.

they were not arrogant and they were not mean spirited, but of course we all know they also would not budge from the jw brainwashed beliefs they are sworn to uphold.

i let my light shine, and within two minutes of sitting down with them was no longer nervous.. .

Elephant

ray-

this is perhaps one of the greatest conundrums...why someone doesnt want to have anything to do with this org, yet actively seeks it for any orientation ...

you indicated yourself that to you its just a piece of paper...plz explain why, then, this piece of paper is so important to obtain?

...if i were you i'd construe it as an opportunity to finally walk away in peace...it's an org who's principles and ideas are not compatible with yours...so stop doing what it asks you to...

150

They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher in

well i figured i should give you all an update.

they will be dfing me soon for apostasy.

it is not a huge surprise and i am not afraid nor "shaking in my boots", however i will admit it is stressful right now.

Elephant

@Elephant: The difference between arguing with a JW and wrestling with a 10-year-old is the 10-year-old will realize he's losing.

-did we just revert to hissy fits?

51

Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

by Christ Alone in

interesting stuff in the november wt.

note this dishonest quote:.

during his ministry, jesus.

Elephant

retro-

The Bible describes true faith as “the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Hebrews 11:1) Clearly, far from being naive, a person with real faith has based his beliefs on a careful scrutiny of all available data. Reasoning on such information produces the conviction that even things that cannot be seen with the literal eye are, nonetheless, realities.

So please tell, are you an apostate, or do you base your faith on evidence and reason? And if the evidence shows that the Bible does not call Jesus an angel, why would the jws do so?

-for the first question i would refer to the scripture itself - "the assured expectation of things hoped for..."

...what you and i hope for can differ vastly retro, what we find in the scriptures allows for a million different faiths due to those hopes specifically...again your conviction is based on certain established parameters (what you call careful scrutiny)...and it is why we can have this debate on wether Jesus is/was an angel or not.

for the second question... i would never say "i am an apostate" , rather i base my faith on evidence and reason...in regards to this particular subject (is Jesus an angel?) u can clearly see my evidence and reason is not compatible with yours or christ alone's...

51

Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

by Christ Alone in

interesting stuff in the november wt.

note this dishonest quote:.

during his ministry, jesus.

Elephant

christ alone-

You conveniently skipped over vs 5-8 which says: "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You.'? And again, 'I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.'?

v6 - "And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'

v7 - "And of the angels He says, 'Who makes His angels winds, and His ministers a flame of fire.'

v8 - "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.

what you interpret in verses 5-8 as proof of your argument, I can interpret that out of all his angels, Jesus is the special one...

6- the first angel

7-angel in charge, as in...the archangel

8-the special one...

see? its your interpretation against mine...who is correct? can u PROVE who is?

I just gave you a scripture that shows that Jesus was NOT an angel. Hebrews asks, "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten You.'? And again, 'I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.'?again...this could be interpreted as 'out of all my angels...who is my begotten son?" ...its no more farfetched than your assertion that this proves otherwise...

That was pretty easy. Here is another proof that Jesus is not Michael: Daniel 10:13, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

-you are assuming that Jesus at this time had already taken his place in heaven next to Jehovah...otherwise, yes, there were many princes at that time...

ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCES! Meaning there are others. Plus, John 3:16 shows that Jesus is God's ONE AND ONLY Son. He is completely unique.

-no argument there...

Here is another: In Hebrews 2:5 it says that the world is not [and will not be] in subjection to an angel. This makes it clear that no angel will ever rule in God's kingdom.

-the scripture reads 'angels'...no God will not subject the world to many...only one...

Here is another: Jude 1:9, "But even Michael, one of the mightiest of the angels, did not dare accuse the devil of blasphemy, but simply said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (This took place when Michael was arguing with the devil about Moses' body.)

-'Lord', or is it Jehovah?

Micheal did not rebuke the devil. Hmmm...Jesus did though...Matthew 4:10 is an example. Besides this, ALL AUTHORITY, including the authority to rebuke the devil, has been given to Jesus (Matt 28:18)

-again, you are assuming that Jesus had already been given ALL AUTHORITY...

Interestingly, the Watchtower did not always teach that Michael and Jesus were one and the same. "Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)…" (1879 WT, p. 4).

-key words here, 'that must include Michael'...was the watchtower certain?

I believe you are the one standing with a lack of evidence, Elephant. Boo Yah

-Christ alone...rather than evidence, what you have presented here underlines my entire point...we both are interpreting...because we are dealing with a subject and events that neither you nor i have been there to witness ...(at least i dont think you have?)

150

They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher in

well i figured i should give you all an update.

they will be dfing me soon for apostasy.

it is not a huge surprise and i am not afraid nor "shaking in my boots", however i will admit it is stressful right now.

Elephant

wont leave-

P: Well, things might not be perfect in the organization, but it’s not your place to correct things.

CP: Then why didn’t all Christians just stay in the Catholic Church? This religion was started by CT Russell because he saw some things that were wrong. He tried fixing things from within instead of adding to the sectarianism and you’re saying that’s wrong?

the use of the word 'might' does not concede that it is...

P: But Jesus already returned and picked his faithful slave.

CP: What happened to all the other stuff in Mat 24 that was supposed to happen first? If Jesus returned, why are we celebrating the Memorial? 1Cor 11:26 indicates the Memorial will cease upon Jesus’ arrival. (This is a touchy one unless you’re ready to get into a whole thing about a “third coming” and call them out on word games and blatant denial.)

-For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

... i dont see a 'commandment' that states you must stop when he comes. again...you are interpreting a scripture to suit your logic...not much different from us...whom you 'call out' for doing so...

P: But Jesus appointed the fds to feed us.

CP: So they say, but Jesus warned about following people who would come along and say “I am he”. (Mark 13:5-6) If you look at Mat 24, a slave can be either faithful or evil and there is no clear separation until Jesus’ return.

-again...you are interpreting scripture...not much different from what P: states.

P: But God’s organization is like Israel coming out of Egypt, following imperfect men doing God’s will.

CP: But I’m not trying to leave or I wouldn’t be here talking to you. Following Moses out of Egypt was a good thing. Bowing to the golden calf a few days later; not so good. I see the modern equivalent of a golden calf and won’t worship it - and I discourage you from worshiping it, too. Also, interesting you should bring up Moses, because the Watchtower loves that analogy for following men. Jesus talked about someone seating themselves in the seat of Moses… Who was that? Also, according to Acts 3:19-22, Moses is the precursor to Jesus, not to the Watchtower corporation.

-'i see a modern equivalent'.. you are assuming that your interpretation is the correct one...

P: But Jehovah uses this organization and we must be submissive to his Holy Spirit being in charge of it.

CP: Let me get this straight… God himself started Judaism and that was subject to deterioration into idolatry and blasphemy, to the point where righteous men all through the OT had to go against the grain to worship faithfully. Jesus Christ started Christianity and that decayed into the Catholic Church and people were burned at the stake for adhering to Scripture over dogma. Yet, CT Russell had the wisdom to start a religion that would just keep getting better and better? We have a 130-year history of obsolete “old light” that was right at the time, but Heaven help them if someone notices that a current teaching is wrong. Are you saying JWs have more of God’s Spirit and blessing than Jesus’ Christianity or Jehovah’s own Judaism to keep it clean?

-if we implied this, how could you prove otherwise?

P: He was Jesus. You’re not.

CP: True, but Jesus’ followers were also not washing their hands to the elbow, even though it caused the Jewish leadership great anguish. Jesus demonstrated that his followers are not beholden to man-made rules with no Bible backing. Should I reject the freedom in Christ Paul talked about in favor of a man-made yoke? (Gal 2:4-5, 5:1)

-absolutely you should not reject stated freedom. but you are still not Jesus.

P: Well, you just have to wait on Jehovah.

CP: But the Bible is Jehovah talking and he already expressed his thoughts on the matter. Who you’re really telling me to wait on is a printing company. Are you saying Jesus was wrong to reject the Pharisees’ teachings in favor of the truth?

-what is it that you are asking to wait for?

51

Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

by Christ Alone in

interesting stuff in the november wt.

note this dishonest quote:.

during his ministry, jesus.

Elephant

data dog-

you wrote-

I learned that the scriptures do not teach this from my studies. This was before I woke up to TTATT. The " Bible Teach " book does teach that Jesus=Michael. I never answered the question in my assignment and there were some confused persons in the audience. -

...and i gather you didn't find any scriptures in your studies that absolutely ruled out Jesus as being archangel either...see how easy it is to argue for or against this idea?

on a side note...if the assignment calls for confirmation of Jesus as archangel, it is PRECISELY because it wants you to do...just that. You were referring to a theocratic school meeting for JW's right? at their k.h. no?

but you apparently dont have enough conviction or confidence in your 'findings' to refuse presenting what you dont believe its true...what you interpreted as confusion could have been uncomfort for your lack of cohesion and logic...