Elephant

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Posts by Elephant

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  51

  Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

  by Christ Alone in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting stuff in the november wt.

  note this dishonest quote:.

  during his ministry, jesus.

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  Elephant

  retro -

  Hi again Elephant

  Circumstances don't dictate what people will become, true. Yet it's well researched and documented that prople raised in over-controlled (or micromanaged?) or abusive environments are more likely to become tyrants or victims themselves. Do you think we should just ignore this substantial risk?

  Again, the word substantial does not denote absolute…but to follow your line of thinking, the effects of environments are in fact ill when they are abusive…say for example, a jail or a an underground bunker for imprisonment purposes…I wouldn’t rule out that there are extremist religions comparable to providing such environments…but its silly to compare the JWs to one of these…as far as I know, anyone can leave the religion without having to worry of being thrown in jail…

  answer- not if you believe that it IS a satan dominated world...if you dont, it shouldnt be much of a problem...

  It's not that simple; there are many stages a person goes through when changing a fundamental belief. Also if the person has been isolated from that world. . .yes, it can be a big problem.

  Well here is an idea I’m finding to be very predominant in these posts…that ‘freedom’ is a long and arduous task without any assurances that it can be attained…one that’s unconvincing…if ‘freedom’ is being dangled just outside of the religion, why is it so hard to attain, yet JW’s will convincingly (and happily) repeat to you that they are in fact free…

  I'm puzzled! Where have I argued in favour of mind control? Choice or not is addressed above.

  Sorry, others’ argument for mind control…

  ...or ...your eye has become simple after all...

  Now if I were a JW that would be a compliment, I think. As it is I'll just say that argument by . . . is pretty simple too, and I've seen it before here.

  …a simple eye denotes a simple mind, no? are you not looking for a simple resolution to this conundrum of elusive freedom?

  By the way, I appreciate your continuing responses…

  Christ alone- (This is in reference to your previous response)

  Hebrews 1:1-4

  New International Version (NIV)

  After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

  -nowhere in this scripture does it say “ Jesus is not an angel”, in fact, it says he BECAME superior to the angels AS THE NAME became superior, drawing comparisons to its elevating state from previous spots on the totem pole…thus denoting various previous possibilities…

  English Standard Version(©2001)And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

  -again, this scripture does not say “Jesus is not angel”.

  So in summary, these scriptures are stating that Jesus (in relation to angels) BECAME superior to angels (just as I can be your superior in a company, though we are both still men) and that angels WORSHIP him, nothing more…

  Now…you can INFER many different things from just these verses, just like I can…but neither you nor I can say here is FLAT proof that THIS is so…the scripture would have to say, “Jesus was never, is, never will be an angel”…everything else is interpretation…

  …again, we can INFER a myriad of theories (beliefs for you and me) but that little word (faith) creeps into the equation yet again when it comes to defending said belief…

  ...in regards to your last post, i'm not quite seeing much a different understanding in regards to what Jesus represents as our saviour...you are correct, he is our saviour and it is through him that we can obtain salvation...i dont disagree with that.
• 
  51

  Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

  by Christ Alone in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting stuff in the november wt.

  note this dishonest quote:.

  during his ministry, jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Elephant

  Retro-

  A public Watchtower, yes, but a Watchtower with JW’s beliefs nonetheless…

  You wrote-

  when we address people whose beliefs differ from ours we present a factual or logical argument for our point of view, rather than a kiddie picture assuming it. . .

  …except religion is not factual based is it? otherwise we would not be having this discussion, right? Christ alone’s point is based on his own parameters he’s set for his mind and comprehension…and he assumes any other interpretation is false… that sounds a little like any person whose confident in his own beliefs…

  Christ alone-

  Elephant, my point was that

  1. Nowhere in the bible was Jesus ever called an angel. In fact just the opposite. Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus is greater than angels and vs 6 states that all the angels are to worship Jesus. Beyond that I was pointing out that there is no scriptural support that Jesus has the wings of an angel.

  1-again…JW’s can make this statement because they believe Jesus is the Archangel…quick question, is there support for angels having wings?

  2. My point about Jesus name vs the mistranslated name "Jehovah" is this: the bible says that Jesus name is above ALL other names. You, as a jw Elephant, claim that you ONLY believe what the bible teaches and you do not go beyond what is written. I am merely pointing out that this is proof of dishonesty and going beyond what the bible says. Nowhere is there any SHRED of proof that Jesus nor any other OT writer EVER use the name Jehovah.

  2. interesting idea…so your belief is that Jesus IS superior to Jehovah? (because his names is above all others.)
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  150

  They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...

  by RayPublisher in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well i figured i should give you all an update.

  they will be dfing me soon for apostasy.

  it is not a huge surprise and i am not afraid nor "shaking in my boots", however i will admit it is stressful right now.

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  Elephant

  ray publisher-

  question...why didnt you just walk away from the religion? thousands of people do it everyday without all this hassle...just curious...
• 
  51

  Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

  by Christ Alone in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting stuff in the november wt.

  note this dishonest quote:.

  during his ministry, jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Elephant

  retro-

  ...then you must have forgotten that JW's believe that Jesus is also the ...archangel...

  thus this visual representation is in perfect harmony with their teachings...

  ...the point wasnt to prove that there is 'proof' that Jesus has wings in heaven, the article i mean.
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  72

  There's gotta be another faction in the Writing Department, either that or they can't see the irony.

  by Theocratic Sedition in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the past two week's worth of wt studies have made a couple points that appear contradictory in nature.

  yesterday was too much, i felt at least.

  either there's another faction within the writing department fighting for the equivalent of airtime in the literature, or they're all so indoctrinated that they fail to see the irony in what they publish.. for instance, take paragraph 5 from last week's lesson.. 5. unlike the law codes of many countries, "the perfect law" is neither complex nor burdensome but consists of simple commandements and principles.

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  Elephant

  I think you said much the same about micromanagement earlier. Am I correct in understanding that you see no problem with it unless the micromanaged person objects?

  If a person is raised in a high-control environment and is consistently discouraged from self-expression and then marries an controlling, abusive spouse, is that OK?

  answer- the words 'high-control' and 'consistently' detract from the idea of 'absolute'... in other words, there is opportunity for choice...

  Are children raised in that environment likely to become independant and respectful adults?

  answer - the word 'likely' admits that the answer can be yes...

  If it is a religion that provides the controlling environment, is that "better" that such a home?

  answer - i dont quite understand this question...are you saying is it okay for religion to substitute a home, as in a family?

  If this controlled person wants to leave, but fears to because they have always been warned of the perils of a Satan-dominated world, are they really free to do so?

  answer- not if you believe that it IS a satan dominated world...if you dont, it shouldnt be much of a problem...

  . . and to return to topic, if the publications of the controlling religion exhorted that person to make up their own mind, wouldn't it mess with their head?

  answer- again, it depends on wether they believe it is so...

  ...again, your argument in favor of mind control is weak because you cannot decide if in fact you have a choice or not...if you're convinced that you don't have a choice...well then yes, you are pretty screwed...

  ...or ...your eye has become simple after all...
• 
  51

  Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

  by Christ Alone in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting stuff in the november wt.

  note this dishonest quote:.

  during his ministry, jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Elephant

  retrovirus-

  but since christ alone hasnt, he cant positively confirm there are no wings...see my point buddy? unless i misunderstood christ alone's complaint with the picture...
• 
  51

  Jesus was an Angel and used God's name

  by Christ Alone in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  interesting stuff in the november wt.

  note this dishonest quote:.

  during his ministry, jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Elephant

  Christ alone -

  question for you, is your argument that Jesus is greater than Jehovah? Or that Jehovah is a myth?

  on a side note, since i dont believe you've ever seen Jesus in a spiritual state (at least i dont think so) how do you know he doesn't look like an angel?
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  6

  DF

  by turtleturtle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am having a hard time understanding why the current jw doctrine is to df a jw who associates with a df'd person.

  however, the elders cannot do anything to you for hanging around df'd family, even if you admit it is not necessary and they know it.

  can someone explain this?.

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  Elephant

  turtle-

  by 'associating' you mean...what?
• 
  72

  There's gotta be another faction in the Writing Department, either that or they can't see the irony.

  by Theocratic Sedition in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the past two week's worth of wt studies have made a couple points that appear contradictory in nature.

  yesterday was too much, i felt at least.

  either there's another faction within the writing department fighting for the equivalent of airtime in the literature, or they're all so indoctrinated that they fail to see the irony in what they publish.. for instance, take paragraph 5 from last week's lesson.. 5. unlike the law codes of many countries, "the perfect law" is neither complex nor burdensome but consists of simple commandements and principles.

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  3. 
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  Elephant

  aposta-z-

  my point exactly my friend...
• 
  23

  Failed Old Testament Prophecies

  by Canary11 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the tyre prophecy in ezekiel 29 is one failed prophecy.

  nebuchadnezzar never destroyed and plundered tyre like he was predicted to..

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  Elephant

  Farkel-

  im not quite following your idea with Moses and rulers , plz explain.