Posts by Skeptic

14

I Attended a Christian Convention last weekend

by Prisca in

jw
friends

when i was a jw (born and raised), i was lead to believe that the clergy class of christendom was some elite class who ruled over the meek and mild sheep of the congregation; that they wore fancy robes to do their services in, and generally were every bad thing the wts told me they would be.. they lied.. i attended a christian convention just this last weekend.

it was a non-denominational one, meaning you didn't have to be of a certain faith to attend, neither were some of the speakers who participated.

however, the organisers were from the anglican (church of england) religion so the communion on sunday was conducted according to anglican tradition, but i'll get to that later.. one of the things that hit me first was that you were allowed to wear what you liked.

Skeptic

Prisca,

Since I was very religious before becoming a Witness. For some reason, I was a minor celebrity, because of having Witness relatives but never having been "got" by them. So I met many clergymen, from many churches.

A few were self-righteous but by far the majority were sincere and very, very nice.

As a JW...The Witness attitude towards individual clergymen always puzzled me. If an "ordinary" householder was at the door, the JWs were polite. If a priest or minister came to the door, the JWs became very rude and argumentative. I never understood this, but then I am comfortable around clergymen.

One priest in our town was known for playing "mind games" with Witnesses....they would never call on him. I did, but I never got him at home. The brothers were told not to call on this man, but I told them his is a person and should be treated as any other householder.

Richard

24

SPEAKING IN TONGUES

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i am a believer in christ have been df'd since 7/01, but left the jw's in my heart for some time before that.. i feel that the gifts of the spirit didn't end in the 1st and 2nd century but should continue until the church is no longer on earth.. i have been to serveral different christian groups and have heard many speak in tongues, but to be honest i'm not very impressed.. it seems to be, not supernatural,.. but more like the reaction you get when you jump in very cold water, and get a terrible chill that makes your jaw vibrate.. the women seems to be the most prominent ones in speaking in tongues, so i wonder if it is just an emotional response, more than any thing else?.

and if paul said to limit the speaking in tongues to just 2 and only if there is an interpeter, why does the speaking in tongues become so prominent at these meetings?

and how come i never hear a translator interpet what is said?.

Skeptic

WindRider, my darling,

Richard, you can still speak in tongues?! And I thought it was just sweet nothings you were whispering in my ear :D

Those sweet nothings were the translation of what was spoken in tongues!

Like the Bible says, as long as things are done with love....

Richard

63

HELP! Real UFO experience. No Joke. Very Serious

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

i want to report the most significant thing that ever happened to.

it is an event that i haven't been able to integrate into my.

life.

Skeptic

proplog2,

I want to commend you on proving the UFO you saw/heard did actually occur. It is pretty obvious from your account that you saw/heard something (unless, of course, you lied, but you are not known as a liar so I assume you are telling the truth).

I wondered if what you heard was a helicopter hovering at low altitude, such as is done in training expercises. But I do not know if a helicopter could cause a building to shake. And you probably know what a helicopter sounds like.

I admit I am stumped.

I always wanted to see a UFO, but, alas, anytime I did think I saw one, I was able to show it was something else. I did not even have one unexplained sighting in my life (of the UFO variety). I find that sad.

Richard

62

Is Watchtower Literature inspired?

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

the question.

is all watchtower articles, books, etc.

inspired by god as the bible was?

Skeptic

I don't believe someone will be disfellowshipped for not agreeing 100% with the GB.

That is true. Even before baptism, I believed that Jacob lied, which is against the WTBS view. The elders were unable to convince me otherwise. I was allowed to be baptised, on the condition that I never say anything about it, especially in the door-to-door work.

What if I had spoke out publicly? I would be DFed in an instant, even though the Bible clearly supports my position.

The problem is the attitude...

LOL! A bad attitude is the perfect charge to lay when someone disagrees with you. It is so general. If they challenge your accusation, you can always reply with, "See what I mean?"

I worked for a corrupt company for 7 years and the "bad attitude" was their favorite charge. "A bad attitude" could get you fired. I worked for an incompentent boss who would order me to do stupid things. When I pointed out that his ideas would not work, I had "a bad attitude". If I did what he said and it did not work out, he blamed me. When I pointed out that I had previous told him why it would not work, I had a "bad attitude".

DFing for a bad attitude is just a way of getting arid of those whom you cannot find any fault with. It is a power play.

...if that person is now preaching to other members of the congregation their own ideas, not based on the Bible.

You mean like JanH preaching about the 1914 generation teaching being bogus? So, JanH was not teaching what was in the Bible, yet six months later the Bible suddenly teaches what Jan had been saying?

Richard

63

HELP! Real UFO experience. No Joke. Very Serious

by proplog2 in

jw
friends

i want to report the most significant thing that ever happened to.

it is an event that i haven't been able to integrate into my.

life.

Skeptic

proplog2,

No, you are not crazy, but your conclusion may be premature.

First, the bare facts:
1) To the best of my knowledge the WTBS does not say that UFOs are demons. They leave it open, acknowledging that life on other planets could exist.
2) The sovernerty issue stuff could mean that earth is the "test planet", if you believe that part of JW theology.
3) Scientists agree that there is probably life elsewhere in the Universe. They also agree this is theoretical, and there is no proof of it yet.
4) The chances of intelligent beings travelling to earth is remote, given our current knowledge of science. Current knowledge shows that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Hence, beings travelling at the speed of light from the nearest star would take 200 years to get here. Plus, there is probably not life near the nearest stars. To get from whereever there is life to earth would probably take millions of years, given interstellar distances.
5) You hear/saw a flying object that remains unidentified. That makes it a UFO by definition. But it does not mean that it came from outside Earth.

You do have enough evidence to know that you hear and ssw something real. You do not have enough evidence to decide it was alien technology. Your logical is actually incredulity. "I don't know how it could happen, so it must be aliens." That is the same sort of logic that creationists use. "I don't know how the Universe got here, so God must have made it."

Just because we do not have an explaination, it does not mean the explaination is extraordinary.

So your current belief system does not have to be shaken. It could be an earthly source, or an alien source. Based on past investigations of UFOs, it is most likely an earthly source.

I have seen video tapes of helicopters landing in the dark, and they look like a flying saucer landing. I would never guess it was a helicopter. I would guess it was a flying saucer though.

Just my two cents,

Richard

24

SPEAKING IN TONGUES

by D wiltshire in

jw
friends

i am a believer in christ have been df'd since 7/01, but left the jw's in my heart for some time before that.. i feel that the gifts of the spirit didn't end in the 1st and 2nd century but should continue until the church is no longer on earth.. i have been to serveral different christian groups and have heard many speak in tongues, but to be honest i'm not very impressed.. it seems to be, not supernatural,.. but more like the reaction you get when you jump in very cold water, and get a terrible chill that makes your jaw vibrate.. the women seems to be the most prominent ones in speaking in tongues, so i wonder if it is just an emotional response, more than any thing else?.

and if paul said to limit the speaking in tongues to just 2 and only if there is an interpeter, why does the speaking in tongues become so prominent at these meetings?

and how come i never hear a translator interpet what is said?.

Skeptic

Having been The Ultimate Sucker for Christianity for 22 years, I am embarrassed to say that I used to speak in tongues.

It is an emotional thing. Going with the flow of the meeting, etc. The reason is psychological. I conclude this from what I personally know of speaking in tongues.

When I did it as a born-again, it was supposedly because of Holy Spirit. The thing is, I can still do it today, and I am an atheist.

Most Christians on this board will agree that Holy Spirit is not with me now because I am an atheist.

My eight year old son speaks in tongues and does not realize it. He and I will have entire conversations of complete babble for fun. I immediately noticed how we talked was exactly like speaking in tongues.

My son does not believe in God, although this is probably my influence. He believed in God not that long ago.

Also, when I was "saved", the church's urban legend was that sometimes speaking in tongues in not from God, but from demons. Apparently, some people spoke in a human language (Japanese, I think) that was known to another Christian in the church. What was said was so disgusting, the person refused to translate. So we were cautioned to be careful. Of course, sometimes the translation is given and it is something very nice and loving.

This human language story could be just urban legend and may have no basis in fact. Considering the unreliability of many rumors told in churches, there probably is no basis in fact. (Does anyone seriously trust the stories they hear? In North America, we were told of people in Africa being raised from the dead. How come the dead are always raised in a far away land where the story is impossible to verify? Why are people not resurrected from the dead in the town where the story is told so we can verify it? Notice that enough details are not given, making verification impossible.)

But if it is, there is nothing supernatural needed. Of all the millions or billions of times people have babbled at random, surely once or twice they would come close to hitting on a few phrases that sound like a human language.

Oh, and for those who say I was never really "saved" and so did not have Holy Spirit ever in my life, my reply is that they did not know me so how can they judge? If I was not saved, then how do they really know they are saved? Claiming that I was never saved implies that no one can truly know if they are saved. Which raises a lot of questions.

Richard, hoff goo nee sah do fee

62

Is Watchtower Literature inspired?

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

the question.

is all watchtower articles, books, etc.

inspired by god as the bible was?

Skeptic

I wish that were how the WTBS operated. If you are correct, then why cannot any JW publicly disagree with a current teaching of the JWs. In fact, why should JWs follow the WTBS blindly? If the WTBS is just imperfect men, then why not make up you mind individually about each teaching of the JWs?

Yet, what we see if that no JW is allowed to "think independently". When allowed to "think" at all, JWs must always come to the conclusion that a current teaching is correct. Even if that teaching is wrong.

However, you are wrong, as proven by the current DFing policies.

If the WTBS only believed themselves to be imperfect men who make mistakes, then why do they disfellowship people for apostacy when someone disagrees with any current teaching of the JWs? And when that person is found to be right, why is the DFing not automatically removed?

JanH was DFed for not believing the 1914 generation doctrine. Six months later, the 1914 generation teaching was scrapped.

By DFing people for not adhering to a "current teaching", the WTBS is in practice claiming to know exactly what Jehovah thinks. They claim to know what Jah thinks so well that they will have someone shunned by all their friends and relatives for not following the latest teaching. Even if they later find that that same teaching is completely wrong.

Think of the demands the WTBS has put on its followers. JWs were asked to not have children because the end was coming in 1925, JWs were encouraged to sell their homes and all worldly possesions and pioneer before the end came in 1975. These are not the actions of an organization that thinks it can screw up. They are the actions of an organization arrogant enough to believe that it speaks directly for God Himself.

Richard

21

whipping or not whipping?

by Julie in

jw
friends

in light of the bru-ha-ha we recently endured over what began as and elder culpability issue gone awry, i thought i would present some words of wisdom written some time ago on this very board.

apparently some poster had had a visit by some elders and had felt ganged up on.

he described this as getting a "whipping", much like we have seen recent allegations of someone here being recently used as a "whipping boy" for another poster.

Skeptic

Julie,

I enjoyed your post and agree that double standards are both in and out of Dubdom.

I really enjoyed your JW story. I was aware of part of it, but did not know the details you provided. I wish I had been as insightful as you were when I studied.

Many who study with the JWs find the same problem that you did: the one who was such a close friend when you are "progressing" often stops visiting you at all when you stop studying. Or, if you get baptised, after a few months, they do not visit very often. Part of the former is the "don't associate with non-JWs" thing, and the latter is often the very busy schedule JWs have.

But both reflect the same sad fact: often, but not always, the "friend" was really not a real friend after all. Although sincere, they were primarily being your friend to convert you. Although in your case, she may have remained a friend if you became a Witness. No matter what the reason, it really hurts.

This psuedo-friendship stuff happens even after baptism, especially if a JW misses meetings too much. Between necessary stuff to do at home and work, I had to "work" literally 20 hour days for three months and hence missed most meetings. A brother, a nice fellow, who previously had paid little attention to me suddenly started to visit me. It was summer, and he would just drop by for a few minutes. He would not stay for coffee or beer. I found his sudden "interest" in me odd; to this day I think he was assigned as a "friend" to me to "encourage" me.

Richard

14

WBTS NULLIFY ones baptisim

by bj in

jw
friends

have you ever heard that the wbts in rare cases nullify ones baptisim?.

in france, a jw who was dying in his bed with aids, confessed to the elders, his homosexual relations.

the elders not knowing what to do, contucted the bethel of france.

Skeptic

Nullifying a baptism is done in very rare circumstances. I wish I had my CD ROM to provide the proof.

In theory, a baptism is considered null if it can be proved that the person being baptised did not understand what it entailed. I find this reasoning suspicious, as Witnesses as young as 5 years old have been baptised. Certainly, a five year old cannot understand what baptism entails. In fact, I doubt a teenager could understand what baptism entails, especially the impact of possible shunning.

I do not know what the purpose of invalidating baptism does. I can be its use in keeping a bigwig JW's child from being shunned, or to avoid bad publicity.

Richard

25

I think Gods talking to me..at last.

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

hi.. ive been experiencing some pretty weird phenomena recently.. it started about two months ago.. what happens is, i get dreams.

they are bad.so bad they wake me up.this is always like, 3am, 4am,then i get up.

after a while i start getting sensations with my hair standing on end and electric impulses running up and down my back, like mild electric shocks.

Skeptic

Seriously, it sounds like a sleep state problem. Do you sleep on your back? If you do, sleep on your side and see if it goes away.

I strongly advise you not to mess around with hypnosis. It can do weird things to your mind, and in extreme circumstances can screw up the rest of your life. Even trained professionals have to be very careful with it.

The following is the original reply I wrote:

No, I am not going to rail on you. And I don't think your nuts. And I know God is not talking to you. As you probably know,I am a atheist.

You may want to see a doctor and be checked out. Epilepsy [sic] can give a person very real religious experiences.

Are you under a lot of stress? You may be experiencing a form of disassociation.

Some medications can cause your experiences.

There are a host of other medical problems that can cause what you are describing.

Does this happen when you are going to sleep or waking up? Then it could be sleep state related. It will seem completely real to you.

Hell, the seismic activity in the earth or solar flares can cause what is happening to you. Seismic activity unfelt by you, or solar flares upset the earth's magnetic field which messes around with the brain's temporal lopes. This can "cause" a person to see God, Jesus, aliens, demons, etc.

If there is nothing medically wrong, I have some questions:

When you think about things, do you hear your thoughts in your head, or see your thoughts.

For example, I hear my thoughts as if someone where speaking. I also see my thoughts, as if viewing them.

Not everyone gets both; most people only hear their thoughts, or see their thoughts. I can't remember is some people get neither.

People who hear their thoughts can "hear" God talking to them. People who see their thoughts can see demons, God, Jesus, etc. Since I can both hear and see my thoughts...well, let's just say that I know these experiences can happen without a person being nuts.

Hope this helps,

Richard