Let me interject a few words on the Roman Catholic position on bible reading and bible study as best as I can.In no time in it's 2,000 years of history has the Catholic church ever forbidden the reading of scripture or the private study thereof. It's as simple as that.The Catholic church has from the beginning worked to insure that accurate translations of the scriptures have been available for all. The first great effort was the Latin Vulgate produced by Jerome back in the fourth century. There have been many since, including the Douay-Rhiems of the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries to the ongoing work of the Revised Standard Version due soon in the twenty first century. Once a version has been authorized by the church for use, it remains valid forever. Non-authorized versions are not prohibited, they are just not used for liturgical purposes.The Catholic church has long had the office of lector; this is a person who is responsible for reading from the scriptures during the liturgy of the word at every mass. This person is usually not a priest, but the office can only be executed under the direction of a priest.For the many hundreds of years of the Dark Ages, it was only by means of the painstaking efforts of untold thousands of Catholic copyists working in candlelit monestaries that we even have a reliable New Testament today. The WTBTS has taken advantage of all these lifetimes spent to preserve scripture and has returned only scorn instead of gratitude.
Skimmer
JoinedPosts by Skimmer
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Bible Study WT June,1 2001
by ISP inthis is from the back cover of the wt.1june 2001. bible study.
not to be read without the presence of a priest.
this warning appears at the beginning of some bibles owned by catholics.
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26
Edward Dunlap recording
by Geoff ini thought one of the points made by this edward dunlap ( http://www.consolidatedcap.com/media/dunlap.html).
character was particularly interesting.
he said that he believed that pual in the christian times believed that "faith alone was enough to garantee that you where saved.
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Skimmer
The late Edward Dunlap as a co-author of the first ever bible encyclopedia of the WTBTS, the _Aid to Bible Understanding_. Also, he was the author of the WTBTS very first biblical commentary, _Commentary on the Letter of James_. He was also as I recall, the registrar of the WTBTS Gilead missionary school where he also taught.
Dunlap served the WTBTS for many years but was given the boot for thoughtcrime that included the suggestion that perhaps the WTBTS was not totally correct in everything that it taught and also that it was possible to do productive bible study without having WTBTS literature involved at all times. Now, if he had kept this to himself as most JWs do, he wouldn't have gotten any attention. However, he shared his thoughts with a few close associates and so word got around in the Brooklyn rumor mill and shortly thereafter Dunlap was out the door.It was a shameful and dishonorable deed by the WTBTS, but not their worst.
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I'm just bein' silly
by chrisauld injust to see if people can be bothered to reply to this; if jw's argument for the existence of god is 'just look around you, look at how beautifal and amazing it all is, it must have been created!!
', why do they then not carry that argument on and say 'which means the creator of this amazing planet must be even more amazing, and therefore must have definately been created!!'????.
instead when i asked that question, they just said 'well, u know, if u carry on asking questions like that, u'll end up spinning around in circles, u have to just accept that jehovoid has lived forever', for me it's easier to accept that the world evolved than it is to believe that god has lived forever!!..
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Skimmer
The particular choice of word "perverse" was taken from a similar usage in the well recommended text _Handbook of Christian Apologetics_. An alternative would be to use the word "stupid", but "perverse" better gives the sense of "turning away from common practice".
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I'm just bein' silly
by chrisauld injust to see if people can be bothered to reply to this; if jw's argument for the existence of god is 'just look around you, look at how beautifal and amazing it all is, it must have been created!!
', why do they then not carry that argument on and say 'which means the creator of this amazing planet must be even more amazing, and therefore must have definately been created!!'????.
instead when i asked that question, they just said 'well, u know, if u carry on asking questions like that, u'll end up spinning around in circles, u have to just accept that jehovoid has lived forever', for me it's easier to accept that the world evolved than it is to believe that god has lived forever!!..
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Skimmer
The "Argument by Design" holds that:
1) There is a great deal of regularity in the universe.
2) Regularity implies a designer.
Note that the argument does not require the designer to be part of the universe. Therefore, the designer does not have to have ever been part of the spacetime continuum. As far back at the tenth century (From Boethius, a monk), we have explicit commentary on how God is outside of time and so there is no real "before" or "after" for God, at least with respect to our reference frame. It is like when an author creates a novel: he sees it all at once, although the characters within the novel could be said to experience a flow of time in their frame.
God is not a created being; to claim otherwise would imply a past or future for God in our frame of reference.
On a personal level, the design argument appears very strong. Atheistic arguments against it are unconvincing as the best they can do is argue that the particular arrangement of physical laws is due to chance.
My version of the design argument goes like this. Here in the United States, the most common pencil used is the Faber #2. Each of them comes in the same color, length, and mass; each operates in the same way. Any person going through the twelve or so years of public education in the US has seen hundreds of these Faber #2 pencils. The proposition is that somewhere there is some common source for these pencils. Maybe there is a single Faber #2 factory or there might be dozens of them, but at some point there was a Faber #2 pencil factory designer. It may be that examination of a Faber #2 will not immediately reveal the location of the pencil factory or the identity of the designer. Yet it would be perverse to claim that the commonality of the old Faber #2 pencil was due to chance or was just unexplainable; Occam's Razor shaves away those objections.
Instead of Faber #2 pencils, think of electrons. Each of them comes in the same charge, size, and mass; each behaves in the same way. There are uncounted octillions of them. The electron factory is generally held to be the universal electromagnetic metric field which pops out electrons under specific physical conditions. The parameters of the electron factory are the fixed physical constants such as the speed of light, the lepton family mass ratios, the strength ratios between the electromagnetic, weak, and strong nuclear forces, etc. If the parameters of the electron factory were somewhat different, none of the higher level structures like atoms, stars, and life would be possible. To claim that there is no designer of the electron factory is as perverse as saying that the Faber #2 pencil factory was also due to chance.
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For your last week as a JW
by Skimmer inif you are a jw, you may he hesitant about leaving because you think they will gossip about you after you're gone.
do not worry, they are gossiping about you already.
so, have some fun and give them some extra material to help them with their "more spiritual than thou" addiction.
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Skimmer
Oh, and here's another idea if you plan to hang around for a month or more:
Tell the elders that you have decided that you are now among the anointed class. BE AS SERIOUS AS POSSIBLE. Convince them with plenty of references from WTBTS literature. Then start a correspondence with Brooklyn, giving them your suggestions for the proper spiritual food in due season. Again, try to make your letters as serious and as convincing as you can. Tell them that you are only doing your duty and woe be to any of the other sheep who try to interfere with the FDS. When they refuse to listen to your new light, start asking some very pointed questions on how they can teach that the anointed form a class when 99.8% have no say in decision making. Keep track of your letters and their replies so that you can later post them on the Internet for all to enjoy.
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For your last week as a JW
by Skimmer inif you are a jw, you may he hesitant about leaving because you think they will gossip about you after you're gone.
do not worry, they are gossiping about you already.
so, have some fun and give them some extra material to help them with their "more spiritual than thou" addiction.
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Skimmer
If you are a JW, you may he hesitant about leaving because you think they will gossip about you after you're gone. Do not worry, they are gossiping about you already. So, have some fun and give them some extra material to help them with their "more spiritual than thou" addiction. Here are some suggestions for things to do during your last week as a JW:
1) Show up at the meetings with a very strong scent of alcohol on your breath. Sunglasses optional.
2) Show up at at meetings with the scent of marijuana on your clothes. Sunglasses required.
3) Wear a flag pin on your shirt.
4) Wear a crucifix on a necklace.
5) Get a bunch of provocative bumper stickers for your car and park next to the Kingdom Hall doors so that all will see.
6) Make up your own "truth" literature packs and hand them out during the field service.
7) Ask the brother in charge of the literature distribution that you want one copy of everything he has in stock to build up our personal library. Tell him you'll "donate" the full "suggested' amount on your next visit.
8) If it is the week of the memorial, don't pass up any offer of a free snack.
9) Print up a lot of small, unobtrusive fliers with lists of "apostate" web site URLs. Sneak them into the books in the Kingdom Hall library. Also, put copies under the wiper blades of the cars parked at the Kingdom Hall. Don't forget to drop one into the contribution box.
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Just a quick poll
by jelly injehovah's witnesses constitute a cancer on the body of humanity, on the human family.
as such, it should be ripped out root and branch and destroyed.
i just read this post in another thread, and it made a question come up in my mind.
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Skimmer
(1) What should ex-Jw do about the org?
Educate and inform, obviously. If we don't do it, who will? Wouldn't you have wanted someone to inform you about both sides of the "Truth" before you got into it?
(2) What’s the best way to accomplish this?
Whatever medium is most useful for the particular circumstances. And it should be done openly, honestly, and legally. We must demonstrate that we are the better men (and women); we cannot drop down to the level suggested by the WTBTS "theocratic war strategy".
(3) Do you think the org will just fade away if left alone?
No, but it will continue to mutate and evolve. Although it may take on more of the trappings of main stream religions, it will almost certainly always be set apart by its rejection of all other faiths as being run by Satan. Without this core belief, the WTBTS will not be able to wield its restrictions on free association and its dual punishments of disfellowshipping and falling into a pit when the Big "A" arrives Real Soon Now. Remember that this central part of the WTBTS doctrine was the invention of Joe Rutherford some eighty years ago; note how it is one of the very few WTBTS beliefs that has not changed since its institution.
(4) Do you think the org will eventually re-invent itself to be more palatable to modern society?
If they do this, it will not be the result of any long range plan. Rather, it will be in response to an ever decreasing amount of net literature income. People tend to note that the WTBTS numbers are dropping in more developed and open countries. Just as important is the fact that nearly all the growth is seen in areas that have little or no disposable income to "contribute'. Having a million salepersons working for free is no good if there are no paying customers.
(5) Do you think the org will become more inflexible and hard-line to appeal to its core members?
They cannot afford to do this due to their demographics. Any appeals made to the older, more conservative members will be offset by rejection from younger members and potential converts. Put it this way: they will have to retain five older members (each with a potential ten more years of literature placement) to offset the loss of a single younger member (with a potential of fifty years of literature placement).
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Witness to teenagers or not?
by kimberly inhttp://www.msmagazine.com .
this is what is being said about the witnesses on a feminist web site forum.
i personally think the first poster was possibly a bit harsh, but then at the same time, maybe the witness she mentions should have asked for the home owner before going into her presentation.. .
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Skimmer
Hello stephenw20:
I suppose the WTBTS has a right not to want to talk to people on the phone who aren't interesting in "contributing" for literature or for signing up to be another happy drone.
It would be better to start up a paper correspondence so that both sides can have a mutual written history on the topic. I am working on a letter, but perhaps others who are more skilled in writing can help here. Maybe we should move this discussion to the original thread.
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Witness to teenagers or not?
by kimberly inhttp://www.msmagazine.com .
this is what is being said about the witnesses on a feminist web site forum.
i personally think the first poster was possibly a bit harsh, but then at the same time, maybe the witness she mentions should have asked for the home owner before going into her presentation.. .
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Skimmer
Quote: "The gentleman on the phone, at the DNC office, remembered me from last week and was not very amicable about information."
They see what's coming.
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Governing Body Exit Doors
by Skimmer inconsider the exit doors for the governing body.. we know that there was no authoritative governing body before 1976, so i will limit the scope of this thought to the time since then.
how do members leave the governing body?.
exit door number one: death; taken by most.. exit door number two: disgrace; taken by a couple.. exit door number three: triumph; taken by raymond franz.. has it ever been the case where a governing body member has left because of senility?
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Skimmer
Consider the exit doors for the governing body.
We know that there was no authoritative governing body before 1976, so I will limit the scope of this thought to the time since then. How do members leave the governing body?
Exit door number one: death; taken by most.
Exit door number two: disgrace; taken by a couple.
Exit door number three: triumph; taken by Raymond Franz.
Has it ever been the case where a governing body member has left because of senility? I ask this as for a good percentage of geriatric folk are prone to intellectual deficit. Also, there have been reports that a number of members were kept on in spite of obvious difficulty with cognitive processing. Perhaps some readers here who had eyewitness observations of governing body members at Bethel could contribute their experiences. If a governing body member doesn't travel, doesn't do field service, and doesn't give public talks all due to dementia, isn't it time for him to step down?
I suspect that there is no mechanism for review for age-related mental impairment. If this is the case, does the governing body retain non-functioning members just because it doesn't want to hurt their feelings? Are they retained because they tend to vote conservatively? Do those members who are not yet afflicted with mental poverty also want a comfortable retirement in spite of senility and so don't want to rock the boat?
Since the reorganization of last year, I think this question is also on the minds of the directors of the Watchtower Society corporations. What will they do when they get irrational or unimplementable "suggestions" from the governing body? Will the function of the governing body revert to the days before 1976 when some (today, all) of the members had no input over the actions of the corporations?
Ray Franz let us know that there is a secret book called something like _Governing Body Procedures Manual_ and that he had to turn in his copy when he left. Just like an elder who leaves has to turn in his copy of the _Flock_ book. I'm sure a lot of people would like to see the GB manual, but the governing body's addiction to secrecy makes it unlikely that the book will ever see the light of day. Perhaps the book has some more information on exit doors.