accouple of things:
I can find this nowhere on JW.org - Gertoux is also not a JW, ALL JW videos that I am aware of only have JWs in them.
The majority is not always correct, that was proven hundreds of years ago.. recent example is of John 1:1, where scholars in the masses now acknowledge that the NWTs rendering is linguistically justifiable (though they may disagree for theological reasons)
While Rolf was a Jehovah's Witness, I would be interested to know when this was made. Rolf (unfortunate for trinitarians) is qualified to make statements on these subjects.
" there is no conspiracy to conceal the tetragramaton." - even though I have my disagreements with the Witnesses, I actually believe them on this.. If this statement was true why is it not used in most translations Hebrew bibles? where every scholar CONFIRMS it appears over 6000+ times? What about the comments made by Benjamin Kedar?
The law in Lev never said anything about pronouncing the name... just not to attach it to worthless things.
seems odd..
The pronunciation and "J in Hebrew" argument also fall flat for reasons that are self evident.
(see comments by Edgar J Foster/ Greg Stafford)
Also very convenient that the name required to allow the trinity to thrive when absent is the name that is controversial & ignored
Blotty
JoinedPosts by Blotty
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Article & Documentary on the Divine name
by Blotty invideo documentary and academic article on the divine name:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljpgxsyiqtc&ab_channel=johnwyatthttps://www.academia.edu/14029315/the_name_of_god_y_eh_ow_ah_which_is_pronounced_as_it_is_written_i_eh_ou_ah_simplified_edition?email_work_card=title this does not prove gods name was present in the nt, however some points do lead us to that conclusion simply by process of elimination.
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Blotty
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Article & Documentary on the Divine name
by Blotty invideo documentary and academic article on the divine name:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljpgxsyiqtc&ab_channel=johnwyatthttps://www.academia.edu/14029315/the_name_of_god_y_eh_ow_ah_which_is_pronounced_as_it_is_written_i_eh_ou_ah_simplified_edition?email_work_card=title this does not prove gods name was present in the nt, however some points do lead us to that conclusion simply by process of elimination.
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Blotty
Video Documentary and academic article on the divine name:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpGXSyIqTc&ab_channel=JohnWyatt
https://www.academia.edu/14029315/The_Name_of_God_Y_eH_oW_aH_Which_is_pronounced_as_it_is_Written_I_Eh_oU_Ah_Simplified_edition?email_work_card=title
This does not prove Gods name was present in the NT, however some points do lead us to that conclusion simply by process of elimination -
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How many terms does the bible bother to explain
by Blotty inthe bible is well known for its ellipsis* and its lack of explanatory statements of a term used.
there are exceptions in grammatical patterns, such as john exclusively using archon for ruler in his writings - which make the term self evident.sin - is defined"one" (unity) - is somewhat defined and also self evident from the context (no exceptions, every person part of that unity is listed in the context)an interesting thing to see would be how many terms are actually used and explained.
*the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues..
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Blotty
Note: I'm strictly talking bible terms and its uses here not WTS or any other religion or organisation.
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
Peaceful Pete
The poster raises some good issues, however again if they are the same group... or symbolic, there's one underlying question.. that everybody seems to fail to realise.
On the issue of 144,000 I'm more inclined to agree with the Witnesses, Edgar Foster & Jim space along with a few others. (except for maybe 3 things which have 0 biblical basis, in my opinion) -
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
Waton
you can do the research yourself, you'll find many non-Christians who also disagree with you for various reasons.
there are numerous flaws in that argument, which I may one day address, but right now have little time to do -
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
(Links will follow in my next comment - Busy with work and family so do not have time to gather atm (& couldnt even if I wanted too), watch this space plz)
as good as I can be, how about yourself..
The scholars I refer are not hard to find.. dont know why you havent found them but ok sure
"Then God is either non existent or died. If God is all he/it's cracked up to be, it would reveal itself and hold it's arms out like a loving Father, not hide so that countless lives can be lost arguing about God. The idea honestly sickens me." - not nessacarily, you conveniently omitted part of my comment.. (the exact reasoning that ironically is the answer to your statement)
"The Muslims claim the same about the Quran. Why are they wrong and Christians aren't?" - never researched the Quran, so honestly couldn't answer that question. As far as I'm aware the Quran is similar to the bible - a dead giveaway would be when it was written (I would be very interested to know now tbh).. also I don't insist "Christians" are right. As when people say that they normally mean trinitarians & iv pointed out before they have very flawed argument's in some cases.
"If Spider-man is a fictional character, then why does New York exist? Lots of fiction has real places and people in it." - there's solid evidence New York exists tho, Spiderman, there is none.. King David however has quite strong evidence (This argument in general is flawed)
The place where the Spiderman story happens is based off a real place, very different and again very flawed.. Why are Egyptians writing about a Jewish King? (Pretty sure he was Jewish) Why do Romans mention a Jewish king (This may be my bad memory, you can take this comment with a grain of salt)
again Ill cite the scholar in their entirety but why fake some of the stuff written in the bible? it seems pointless, there is no rhyme or reason, unless your going to make some stupid argument about the writers having a "narcissistic" idea or something.. in which case I say - get real.
Spiderman is not portrayed as reality nor will ever be recorded as being reality.. (unless you are what i said above) because that would be a lie.. and again rather pointless.. The fact remains there are NO ancient scholars (or historians) that I am aware of that dispute the existence of any bible character, you would think if they didn't exist it would have been disputed.
"Things are certainly not perfectly made." - perfectly is in " " indicating I didn't have a better word at the time, There is evidence against a "big bang" or whatever.. if a random explosion (Ill use that, note there are many other theories out there) how did everything come to exist so "orderly" (i.e water cycle)
note- the bible mentions this ages before it was "discovered" (scripture in following comment) I have a reasonable explanation put it that way.. does anyone know 100% no, is it of interest, yes. Should it be, debatable (if your Mr pessimistic, then its not going to be of much interest and frankly there are other people looking for debates online that know more than me on some of these subjects )Too answer the "time keeper" bit (this should be self evident, I'm not using "mysterious" language) but Ill say "Historical record" then, you can search these out, but scholars (some non -christian) admit the bible records events that happened very accurately (they do this by cross referencing with other sources)
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How many terms does the bible bother to explain
by Blotty inthe bible is well known for its ellipsis* and its lack of explanatory statements of a term used.
there are exceptions in grammatical patterns, such as john exclusively using archon for ruler in his writings - which make the term self evident.sin - is defined"one" (unity) - is somewhat defined and also self evident from the context (no exceptions, every person part of that unity is listed in the context)an interesting thing to see would be how many terms are actually used and explained.
*the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues..
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Blotty
The Bible is well known for its ellipsis* and its lack of explanatory statements of a term used. There are exceptions in grammatical patterns, such as John exclusively using Archon for ruler in his writings - which make the term self evident.
Sin - is defined
"One" (unity) - is somewhat defined and also self evident from the context (no exceptions, every person part of that unity is listed in the context)
An interesting thing to see would be how many terms are actually used and explained*the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
Enoughisenough said: "My conclusion is if one accepts that all has sinned, then when Jesus says his blood is for the forgiveness of sin for all, then I take that to be literal as well."
Who said anything about a symbollic "all" - not me, you can take the "all" literally just not "absolutely" - "other" is implied in "all" so "all" might not mean everybody, there still may be exceptions, again Paul makes this evident.
"All has sinned" - did Jesus sin? did God? what about the majority of the angels? did inanimate objects?(this last one is hyperbole, but you get the point) there lies the flaw in that statement, How do you account for the other scriptures where "all" is used, when it doesn't actually mean "all"?"The fig tree and all the trees" - is a "fig tree" now not a "tree" because it says "all trees"? you said "all" means everything (or one) so apparently that's how I should understand it - but that is clearly wrong.. and again there are other ways to be saved - I can think of 1 off the top of my head.
again:
“The words ‘world’ and ‘all’ are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that ‘all’ means all persons, taken individually.”
(Particular Redemption, A Sermon, No. 181, 28 Feb 1858.)
Punkofnice: There are many many scholars and historians (Modern & Ancient) who have proven Jesus existed, God is slightly harder as the people in the bible automatically assumed God existed - so no need to place explicit evidence upon the case. (too the writers and people of that time, too us its slightly different)
If the bible is a hoax, Why was new evidence of King David recently (admittedly articles vary on dates) found?
Why did Romans mention Jesus? (atleast 2, that I'm aware, pretty sure there is more - both non-believers)
Why is the bible such an accurate time keeper? (look into it if you haven't, I mean actually look into it)
How did the universe begin? Big Bang? (there are multiple explanations so I will not say "explosion" or anything particular to cover the basis) doubtful
- What caused the "Big bang"?
- Why is everything so "perfectly" made, everything makes sense and has a purpose
+ hundreds more questions
most questions non-believers can throw are answered in the bible.. It is also important to note the Bible was never written to answer all questions, nor does it explicitly explain certain things. This is evident from the lack of defining terms in the bible, its rare that the actual meaning is explained (or spelled out)"Why does God allow suffering?" - proving a point and an important one
"Why does (bad thing i.e disease) exist" - Sin (one of the rare terms that is somewhat defined)
The evidence is there whether you accept it or not.. -
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
For these other method I would suggest looking up every clause (& its context) that mentions salvation & be sure to take note of the use of "all" & "everyone" in some of them - the statements MUST harmonise and if they don't, the interpreter is in error (while it is not nessacary to understand Hebrew or Greek to read the bible, I would make a very strong argument for researching culture, time period and linguistical uses of certain words)
even in English, how often do we use "all" or "everyone" and it is absolute (literal)? I can think of very few reasons/ contexts where this is truly the case
again I am NOT going to argue, you asked for an example you got one, questions I'm more than happy to answer (with in reason) But you can also research this online (most of the time a simple google search, with first or second result) very easily in contrast with other subjects where its very hard not to get just one side of teh argument -
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
"Can you provide an examp[l]e?" (error corrected for clarity sake)
Just off the top of my head - there are many others provided by others on this website When dealing with similar clauses
The most "famous" one is done by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28
However other examples includeColossians 1:20 - reconcile to himself "All things" - does this include Satan? no (thats self evident from else where, where the bible says he will be destroyed), does it include animals? not that I'm aware of
scholars comments:
Of particular signifigance to your topic is:“The words ‘world’ and ‘all’ are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that ‘all’ means all persons, taken individually.”
(Particular Redemption, A Sermon, No. 181, 28 Feb 1858.)
Others not so related but still apply:“ἄλλος [állos] is sometimes omitted where we would add ‘other.’”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Blass & Debrunner, 1961 wrote (p.160))
“ellipsis: “In the broad sense applies to any idea which is not fully expressed grammatically andleaves it to the hearer or reader to supply the omission because it is self-evident.”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, University of Chicago Press, 1961, section 479, p. 253. Trans. by R. W. Funk)“ellipses”: “The omission of the notion ‘other, whatever’...is specifically Greek.”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament Blass, Debrunner, Funk 1961, p. 254)
"But the WT says that only 144K are justified (declared righteous). In WT theology, how does those who are not declaed righteous saved from wrath?
The WT has never addressed this question; which is the most important question a person can ask a JW."
answer: Im not going into this in detail as information on this subject in depth is available elsewhere online (& the bible makes it self evident, when you understand certain elements of how it exaggerates)
Who said you had to be declared righteous to be saved from his wrath? I can think of another method in which ones can be saved from Gods wrath..