john.prestor

Joined

• started 29 topics
• posted 900 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by john.prestor

• 
  11

  When did the policy to report to the legal “desk” / “department” was introduced?

  by Paul Bonanno in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as you are all aware the elders are instructed that when they come across a case of “child sexual abuse” they have to call the “legal desk” / “legal department”.

  prior to 1993 this was the policy that as an elder we had.

  do you know when this policy was introduced or started and what was the history behind it?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  I only learned about this problem because of people like you on this site who brought it to my attention. The Governing Body has to fix this problem, has to start protecting children, and if they won't, it's time for governments around the world to make them.
• 
  11

  When did the policy to report to the legal “desk” / “department” was introduced?

  by Paul Bonanno in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as you are all aware the elders are instructed that when they come across a case of “child sexual abuse” they have to call the “legal desk” / “legal department”.

  prior to 1993 this was the policy that as an elder we had.

  do you know when this policy was introduced or started and what was the history behind it?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Happy to help, Paul. I'm getting ready to publish (try to publish, ha) a paper that deals with child sex abuse and how the organization handles it, I'll keep you guys posted.
• 
  13

  My brother is shunning me (but he's not a Witness)

  by john.prestor in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i didn't know where to post this but it's been on my mind and i'm looking for support and advice from people who know what it's like being shunned.

  i was raised in a fundamentalist baptist church, so what i'm experiencing is a little different than most posters on this site.

  i've been out of that church for years, and my brother's been out for a while too.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Thank you for saying that. It hurts because he's my brother and we used to be... affectionate, not really close, but we got along and had fun sometimes. And now that's over, and it's not coming back. But I guess that's the point isn't it? It's not coming back, and I have to come to terms with that.

  This has been really helpful guys. This wasn't easy for me. The support means a lot.
• 
  26

  Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things.

  we hear about them,look into them and laugh.however, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqg8w7ezuq&t=268s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  No response to what I posted... again. So this is my last response.

  I'm glad you quoted that passage. Early Christians did believe Jesus rose from the dead... in the spirit. Check 1 Peter for instance. Clement says the disciples were convinced. They were convinced, but why? Because of the empty tomb and a bodily resurrection? No. Because they had faith in him. You can't separate resurrection from bodily resurrection. Early Christians, however, believed, as in Hebrews, that Jesus passed immediately from the cross to heaven as a spirit when his body died. Thus the earthquakes and dead people rising in Matthew right when Jesus dies. Thus Jesus 'giving up the ghost' in Mark and John and even the Gospel of Peter

  I disagree with you on the historical Jesus, and while I respect Bart Ehrman I think he's wrong on this. Go to thejesuspuzzle.com and read some of the articles, you're in for a surprise. I go for a more very minimalist position myself. For that I'd suggest Alfred Loisy, you can find his The Origins of the New Testament free at earlychristianwritings.com.

  Final point: I used to believe what you do. There's a reason I don't anymore.
• 
  26

  Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things.

  we hear about them,look into them and laugh.however, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqg8w7ezuq&t=268s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Classic fundamentalism, I demolish your first argument so you abandon it without acknowledging you were wrong and just retreat to the next.

  People die for all sorts of reasons beyond seeing some dead guy appear before their very eyes. When jihadists blow themselves up does that prove their brand of Islam is true? Of course not.

  Early Christians knew nothing about the 'empty tomb' legend or any legends about physical appearances like the gospels describe. In 1 Clement the author, a Roman bishop writing at the end of the first century or beginning of the second, claims the four seasons and the phoenix (!) prove that God will one day resurrect believers. Let me repeat that: the four seasons and the phoenix. Perfect chance for him to trot out the empty tomb legend or some appearance of the resurrected Jesus to the disciples, and yet that's the best he can come up with. The only passage in the Bible beyond the gospels which mentions any resurrection appearances is 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul contradicts the legends found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (appearances to Mary and/or other women, then appearances to the 12) with 'his' own list of appearances to Peter, the 12, James, all the apostles, 500 brothers, and Paul. Point being Paul himself contradicts the gospel legend with his own set of legends. In other words: there's no good reason to believe a word of what the gospel authors claim.

  You're beat, tap out. I'm being gentle.
• 
  11

  When did the policy to report to the legal “desk” / “department” was introduced?

  by Paul Bonanno in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as you are all aware the elders are instructed that when they come across a case of “child sexual abuse” they have to call the “legal desk” / “legal department”.

  prior to 1993 this was the policy that as an elder we had.

  do you know when this policy was introduced or started and what was the history behind it?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  I did a little digging: looks like it was in 1989, there's a scan of the letter at https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/paedophilia.php
• 
  11

  When 2 want to visit.

  by stillin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  some of the local witnesses have been by, periodically, to check on us and say that they miss us.

  i consider that a decent thing to do since they figure that we're going to die any day now from the loving god.

  some have been elders, who have to always stay distant so that they don't somehow get contaminated by being too nice to us.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  With you on that Morph, feels like they're setting the stage.
• 
  26

  Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things.

  we hear about them,look into them and laugh.however, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqg8w7ezuq&t=268s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  Because they aren't the writings of those who traveled with Jesus: they never claim to be, and Matthew copying so much of Mark's account in writing his own gospel doesn't make sense for an eyewitness. Why not tell what you remember, as opposed to repeating and reworking the material Peter's disciple Mark wrote down second-hand (supposedly, if you believe Papias)?
• 
  26

  Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things.

  we hear about them,look into them and laugh.however, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqg8w7ezuq&t=268s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  knowsnothing1: How do you deal with Pliny? Was there Christian persecution? More importantly, why were they persecuted?

  In his letter to Trajan Pliny implies, as we know from other sources if I recall, that Christians were accused of being "atheists" because they refused to acknowledge the Roman emperor as a god. This amounted to treason in that day and age, which is why Pliny made people accused of being Christians offer "prayers with incense and wine to [the emperor's] image."

  http://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/pliny.html

  Early Christians were also accused of "cannibalism" because people didn't understand their talk of eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus.

  They also preached against secular society, which always pisses everybody off.

  In other words: these reasons are more compelling explanations for why the Roman government persecuted early Christians than the reason you initially provided, that the apostles saw Jesus rise from the dead.
• 
  26

  Jesus Christ: Invented by the Romans to subvert the Messianic impulse in Judaism into Pacifism?

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  of course, there are many crackpot theories about all sorts of things.

  we hear about them,look into them and laugh.however, once in a great while, somebody presents a cogent and feasible thesis backed up by scholarship and history.watch this video presentation and present your rebuttal (or agreement) for discussion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uqg8w7ezuq&t=268s.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  john.prestor

  truth_b_known: "the Gospels are believed to have been written no earlier than 3 decades after the events they are alleged to have chronicled took place"

  That's not what critical (i.e., non-religiously motivated) scholars conclude. Go check out earlychristianwritings.com, they have pages for all four canonical gospels with the typically accepted dating range and even links to articles which, I think, discuss dating in greater detail. In general, scholars tend to argue 65-70 for Mark (but on little evidence), 70-80 for Matthew, 80-90 for Luke (although I'm inclined to agree with Joseph Tyson that the Luke we knew was published against the early heretic Marcion, who came to Rome in the mid-2nd century, which would put canonical Luke closer to 130-140 CE and proto-Luke, known to Marcion himself, closer to 90-100 CE), and John around 90-100 CE. Those are conservative estimates, by the way: we don't have any firm evidence for them, nobody explicitly cites gospels by name or explicitly quotes from them until the mid-2nd century (e.g., Justin Martyr),