Posts by TonusOH

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: I can imagine the surprise of realizing that God wasn't a big soft teddy bear after all.

Oh no, I understood that; the OT makes quite clear that Yahweh is not soft. The NT tries to remake him into a more kind and gentle person, but even there it makes clear that he is not above harsh and precipitate action. But I could rationalize that all away, since he was god, after all. As you say:

Halcon: That he has the final say, and that there is no compromising.

The reason he has the final say is because he is more powerful than we can even imagine. The reason he does not compromise is because he doesn't have to. No one can oppose him.

This means that god never has to hide who he is-- he can behave however he wishes. There is no one to oppose him. And his nature, if we believe the Bible, is of a jealous god who is given to quick anger and sudden, violent outbursts. We cannot stop him, we cannot hide from him, and the best we can do is hope that we're not the next target. We can define him however we wish, but his actions make it quite clear who he is and what he is like. He is a frightening being, when we recognize that his actions are who he is.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

This is an odd thing about gods, including Yahweh. They seem to disappoint those who know them directly.

If you were to know such a being unambiguously, there would be no question that he has the final say. He is a being of incomparable power. No one can possibly foil his plans, and no one can stand against him. There can't be any confusion about this.

And yet... so many of the people who knew him directly were unimpressed. If we go with the Christian narrative, the serpent is under the control of an angel who turned against god. This angel was able to turn the first humans against god. This angel -if the book of Revelations is to be believed- turned a third of the angels against this god. All of them knew that this action could only end in their destruction. But they were willing to turn against him anyway.

When I was a believer, I thought of god as the single most impressive and amazing individual I could possibly ever have the privilege of knowing. The idea that I might find him to be unimpressive or disappointing was simply unfathomable. And yet, so many of the people who met him were willing to turn on him, even knowing that this meant death (or worse, eternal torment).

The one constant with this being is his overwhelming power, and his willingness to use it to justify his actions. And even with that threat hanging over them, many beings have decided it is better to die and/or suffer than to live under his rule. What could they know about him that would lead them to behave in such a manner?

3053

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

Meh, he has a wife and two kids. He wasn't celibate, even if we ignore the times he was paying for sex.

He lacks willpower and has excused himself by pretending that the human sex drive is overwhelming and unstoppable. He doesn't seem to notice that most people control their sex drive just fine. But that is to be expected from someone who is so selfish and self-centered.

12

Missing photos, even Avatars

by blondie in

jw
friends

i think someone else noticed this here recently.

i wondered when i signed on today july 9, 2024, that even the avatars were missing.

does simon know?

TonusOH

I think the site was experiencing some kind of hiccup. Looks like all is back to normal now.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Further, the snake resorted to a temptation... that they would be like God.

I think this is where the story is more sensible as an allegory and not a literal event. The serpent tempted Eve, but he does so with the truth- eating from the fruit will grant them the knowledge of good and evil. Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.)

In the literal reading, one must wonder why god would infuse the tree with a power that was so destructive, leading to thousands of years of suffering. The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

39

JE-sus making a comeback at the 2024 Convention

by dropoffyourkeylee in

attended the friday sesson of the 2024 summer convention.. july 5, 2024 summer convention crowd photo; they invited quite a lot of empty chairs.. .

the facility usually has 5500-6500. they spun it saying that fewer congregations were assigned.

there were 6 of the smaller, more distant sections blocked off with tarps to lessen cleaning, which i understand.

TonusOH

WingCommander: the old hot-ass Veteran's Stadium in FilthyDelphia

We went to one there in 1983. I think every day was 95 degrees F and not a cloud in the sky. There was a LOT of seating that had no shade. Except for a few people who brought large umbrellas, everyone was crammed into the seating that had some shade, leaving the large areas near the field almost totally empty. I think we referred to those seats as 'Death Valley.'

57

Holding a grudge

by LongHairGal in

i read something recently on reddit (not sure what thread) where a person related how some jw told them that ‘they hold a grudge’.. this reminded me of something an old jw acquaintance said to me some years back when i related my bad experience in the religion.. so, apparently, jehovah’s witnesses feel they should be forgiven for anything.

people should forget all about it and act like nothing happened and be charitable towards them, etc… when i read in james and ephesians i got the sense ‘holding a grudge’ was referring to the things average people do to offend each other.. i don’t see it applying to a religion that claimed to speak for god and who engendered hateful and unchristian attitudes towards people.. i know because i experienced this.. in addition, some people’s lives were damaged by listening to faulty teachings and interference in things that were clearly none of anybody’s business.. one case in point: them knocking worldly careers and now there are thousands of destitute jws in senior years with nothing.. then in 2023 the religion does away with a century old teaching about counting hours in the ministry.

meanwhile, i got judged over this.

TonusOH

Yeah, I think there is a difference between forgiving and forgetting.

In regards to the WTS, if they have not expressed contrition for their actions and attitudes of the past, I think it is fair to NOT forgive them, unless you need that for your own peace of mind (which is, I think, a valid reason to forgive). But we can't forget, or act as if they did not do these things in the past. The organization sees their past actions as "spirit-guided" and thus they see no need to apologize. Not even to those people who have suffered as a direct result of their doctrines and policies.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Will I recognize God as my creator and I am the creation, only human?

I think this question only arises because we are unable to interact with god, and god just never seems to show up anymore. Adam, Eve, and the serpent would not have had this issue. In that sense, it doesn't strike me as a question of whether or not they recognized god's position and authority. The humans must have, as they did not eat of the forbidden fruit until goaded into doing so.

The story implies that things were working out just fine until the serpent entered the picture. I don't see this as a question of whether modesty compels us to understand our relationship with god-- Adam and Eve appear to have figured this out. I think it's a question of whether god was satisfied with this, and why he would introduce a factor which unraveled his utopia.

I accept the premise that the serpent deceived Eve. I think it's fair to consider that her understanding would not have involved dying --at any time-- as a result of eating the fruit. But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it. Did he do so with the understanding that it would work to undermine paradise and trap humanity in centuries of suffering? Did he give snakes the gift of speech and a clever nature, unaware of what might transpire? Were the humans ready for this kind of test? If not, was it fair?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Were they truly going to be a most miserable unhappy couple for being humble and trusting their Creator?

I am wondering if they had any reason to trust their creator, seeing as how he set them up for a failure that resonates thousands of years later. As an allegory, the lesson is clear: right and wrong are god's to determine. It's just poorly presented. I doubt that the intent was to promote the idea that ignorance is bliss, but it's an unavoidable conclusion. Or that god's perfect setup was undone by allowing humans to make their own decisions.

It also brings up the question of how desireable free will is. If there is one path that makes us happy and prosperous, and every other path leads to misery and suffering, what good does it do us to have a choice? Aren't we better off only able to do the things that god wants?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: This snake is good...

I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god. In some contexts, the snake is neutral (if it represents Eve's inner dialogue, for example). In some, the snake is evil (as defined in the NT). Since the outcome of its actions is negative, there isn't a good option, IMO. Except, perhaps, as a warning.

I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction (though it might make an interesting Abbott and Costello routine). Even as an allegorical tale, it implies that god withheld important understanding from mankind and left us to our own (uninformed) devices, then punished us for it. It reveals a part of Yahweh's nature that I think we can see throughout the Bible, but that makes for a very frightening character. He acts in a manner that is arbitrary and unpredictable. Since he cannot be held to a moral standard, he is capable of anything. And we are forced to accept this as a good thing.