Posts by TonusOH

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Not correct, if the scriptures are to be believed regarding the eventual unity between mankind and God.

The scriptures are fairly vague about this, though. Perhaps the one clear indication is that we are to spend eternity glorifying a being who doesn't need to be glorified. I think this means we will lose our freedom, as I cannot see everyone doing that forever and being satisfied with it. Why go through a relatively brief life that doesn't come close to resembling the life we will spend the rest of eternity in?

Halcon: Don't forget, that despite failing to follow his rules there are many that truly want to.

And yet, they cannot. So we have to wonder what will change to make that capable of doing so, while retaining whatever it is that makes them who they are. That's a pretty fundamental behavioral change, IMO. And it makes me wonder why this couldn't have been turned on for that first human couple. It would have avoided thousands of years of suffering (and an eternity of suffering to come, for a great many).

3042

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

Can someone be all three? Asking for a ~~friend~~ obnoxious Youtuber.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: No doubt, God causes us human beings to feel fear, to see him as frightening. But isn't this a logical response from us?

By itself, his power and grandeur is imposing. Intimidating. I think this is understandable.

The fear comes from the realization that he frequently uses this power to punish his creation. His standards are clearly outside of the ability of his creation to maintain-- even those who are loyal and dedicated to him will admit that they fall short of his standards, no matter how hard they work to please him. Indeed, the only human who ever met Yahweh's standards was Jesus, who was a god (possibly this very same god) masquerading as a human.

And it's not just humans. At least a third of the angels have fallen, possibly many more (how many have lapsed since the last Biblical tome was written?). Meeting god's standards is a goal humans cannot reach and that even angels are likely to fall short of. Over a long enough time span, it is reasonable to expect that none of his creation will avoid his wrath. In other words, it is inevitable that we will be condemned by god.

What scenario is there, where we do not offend god? The only possible future where we are not all hellbound is one where we are stripped of free will and remade to serve. And if this was to be the eventual outcome, why not do it from the start?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

As described, Yahweh is quite terrifying. And this is based on how he is described by those who think highly of him.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: I can imagine the surprise of realizing that God wasn't a big soft teddy bear after all.

Oh no, I understood that; the OT makes quite clear that Yahweh is not soft. The NT tries to remake him into a more kind and gentle person, but even there it makes clear that he is not above harsh and precipitate action. But I could rationalize that all away, since he was god, after all. As you say:

Halcon: That he has the final say, and that there is no compromising.

The reason he has the final say is because he is more powerful than we can even imagine. The reason he does not compromise is because he doesn't have to. No one can oppose him.

This means that god never has to hide who he is-- he can behave however he wishes. There is no one to oppose him. And his nature, if we believe the Bible, is of a jealous god who is given to quick anger and sudden, violent outbursts. We cannot stop him, we cannot hide from him, and the best we can do is hope that we're not the next target. We can define him however we wish, but his actions make it quite clear who he is and what he is like. He is a frightening being, when we recognize that his actions are who he is.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

This is an odd thing about gods, including Yahweh. They seem to disappoint those who know them directly.

If you were to know such a being unambiguously, there would be no question that he has the final say. He is a being of incomparable power. No one can possibly foil his plans, and no one can stand against him. There can't be any confusion about this.

And yet... so many of the people who knew him directly were unimpressed. If we go with the Christian narrative, the serpent is under the control of an angel who turned against god. This angel was able to turn the first humans against god. This angel -if the book of Revelations is to be believed- turned a third of the angels against this god. All of them knew that this action could only end in their destruction. But they were willing to turn against him anyway.

When I was a believer, I thought of god as the single most impressive and amazing individual I could possibly ever have the privilege of knowing. The idea that I might find him to be unimpressive or disappointing was simply unfathomable. And yet, so many of the people who met him were willing to turn on him, even knowing that this meant death (or worse, eternal torment).

The one constant with this being is his overwhelming power, and his willingness to use it to justify his actions. And even with that threat hanging over them, many beings have decided it is better to die and/or suffer than to live under his rule. What could they know about him that would lead them to behave in such a manner?

3042

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

Meh, he has a wife and two kids. He wasn't celibate, even if we ignore the times he was paying for sex.

He lacks willpower and has excused himself by pretending that the human sex drive is overwhelming and unstoppable. He doesn't seem to notice that most people control their sex drive just fine. But that is to be expected from someone who is so selfish and self-centered.

12

Missing photos, even Avatars

by blondie in

jw
friends

i think someone else noticed this here recently.

i wondered when i signed on today july 9, 2024, that even the avatars were missing.

does simon know?

TonusOH

I think the site was experiencing some kind of hiccup. Looks like all is back to normal now.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Further, the snake resorted to a temptation... that they would be like God.

I think this is where the story is more sensible as an allegory and not a literal event. The serpent tempted Eve, but he does so with the truth- eating from the fruit will grant them the knowledge of good and evil. Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.)

In the literal reading, one must wonder why god would infuse the tree with a power that was so destructive, leading to thousands of years of suffering. The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

39

JE-sus making a comeback at the 2024 Convention

by dropoffyourkeylee in

attended the friday sesson of the 2024 summer convention.. july 5, 2024 summer convention crowd photo; they invited quite a lot of empty chairs.. .

the facility usually has 5500-6500. they spun it saying that fewer congregations were assigned.

there were 6 of the smaller, more distant sections blocked off with tarps to lessen cleaning, which i understand.

TonusOH

WingCommander: the old hot-ass Veteran's Stadium in FilthyDelphia

We went to one there in 1983. I think every day was 95 degrees F and not a cloud in the sky. There was a LOT of seating that had no shade. Except for a few people who brought large umbrellas, everyone was crammed into the seating that had some shade, leaving the large areas near the field almost totally empty. I think we referred to those seats as 'Death Valley.'