Posts by TonusOH

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

You don't have to convince me that Smith and Mohammad were crappy people. However, that's not my point. Both of those men are far better attested to than Jesus, but the fact that they existed does not convince Christians that their more extravagant claims are true. "This person existed" is simply not sufficient.

On the other hand, there are millions --billions, even-- of people who do believe that Smith and Mohammad were divinely inspired. Why? Presuppositions. Very powerful, yet very clearly unreliable. If we apply the same approach to all of these claims, they all fall short. To the extent that they are believed, it is entirely dependent on what we believed before we had a chance to put them to the test.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

[deleted duplicate post]

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

ukpimo: [...]Christians made themselves up from some literary fandom they created

This would not be different from every other religion, would it? Those are, in the view of the Christian, invented. The Christian may accept that a man named Mohammad existed, but they do not believe that he was commissioned by God to write a final testament that superceded all others, or that he flew to heaven on a winged horse. We are confident that Joseph Smith existed and that he established a new branch of Christianity, but we do not believe that his addendum to the Bible is legitimate. Same for an endless list of religious figures across a multitude of religions, both current and forgotten.

The problem is not that I see Christianity through some deliberately warped lens (not anymore, at least). The problem is that when I apply that filter to any other religion, they are just as legitimate and 'true.' Religion relies heavily on presuppositions, which are things we believe without corroboration. It's how people with completely different beliefs can be just as certain that they are right and the other person is wrong. Remove the presupposition, and pretty much every religion ends up in the same place-- lacking any evidence.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: It is a flaw. It is a flaw in their thinking.

So, we have established that there is an explanation for the concept that someone would die for a lie. These men, with their flawed thinking, rejected an obvious truth and preferred to die for an obvious lie. I can apply this to the apostles, then. Why would they be willing to die for their belief? Because their thinking was flawed, messed up, not logical.

The pharisees saw Jesus as a man who claimed godhood, the apostles saw him as God made flesh. The former seems to be much more likely to be true. After all, even religious people reject every other such claim.

However, that wasn't what I was referring to when I spoke of a flaw. The flaw I refer to is the ambiguity of the Bible itself. A work so open to interpretation that even those who believe in it have spent centuries hopelessly divided in how to interpret it. These divisions have been significant enough to lead to mistreatment and even bloodshed. A book that is supposed to have been authored by an unmatched intellect who wants us all to achieve salvation and serve him as a unified group, yet so poorly written that even now we cannot come to a consensus on what it says, so that people accuse each other of being deranged or mislead or just evil. That's the flaw.

If it is the word of a divine being, we're in for a very unpleasant eternity.

266

Where is Tony?

by Athanasius in

jw
friends

on february 22, 2023, anthony morris iii was officially removed from the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

a few months later it was revealed that the watchtower bought him a house in lumberton, north carolina.. however, and correct me if i am wrong, since leaving the gb nobody has reported seeing tony attending jw meetings or participating in field service.

in fact nobody has reported seeing him anywhere, not even at a local liquor store.

TonusOH

I do recognize who he is/was, and his part in the history of the WTS. I am quite interested in what happened to him! I just think that it's not enough to move people to action. I'm not that far from the Carolinas, but I wouldn't ever think of heading over there to see if I could find him. I expect that it is the same for many exJWs; we are curious to know the details and what is going on, but not so much that we would do anything other than ask around.

And JWs, of course, will follow the GB's lead. If AM3 has become an unperson, that's how they will see it. It is creepy to think of the depth of control the WTS had over me, and still has over so many.

3032

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

Evans blames the WTS for his own sexual hang-ups because he does not want to change his behavior. If he can blame someone else for his actions, then he doesn't have to stop being an awful person.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: For the same reason Herod saw him in a negative light - they didn't want to lose their power and control over people.

Even though they knew he was divine?

I asked the question to point out a flaw in the argument that the apostles would not have died for a fraud. We can point out this flaw in other ways, such as the claim that the Jewish priests --who were waiting on the Messiah-- would reject a man who performed miracles and spoke in a way that left people amazed. If people can act in an irrational manner, why not the apostles who supposedly preferred martyrdom? If their actions only make sense in the context of an actual god in their midst, how does that explain his rejection by the priests? Because they wanted something that they knew they would lose anyway? That doesn't make sense.

This sort of selective interpretation might be excused if it happens once, or if it can be explained away in a coherent manner. But this is typical of the Bible-- it is interpreted many different ways and inconsistencies and problems like the one described above are ignored or handwaved. After a while, it's not hard to understand what is happening-- we interpret it to suit our beliefs. This, in itself, is a flaw.

266

Where is Tony?

by Athanasius in

jw
friends

on february 22, 2023, anthony morris iii was officially removed from the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

a few months later it was revealed that the watchtower bought him a house in lumberton, north carolina.. however, and correct me if i am wrong, since leaving the gb nobody has reported seeing tony attending jw meetings or participating in field service.

in fact nobody has reported seeing him anywhere, not even at a local liquor store.

TonusOH

There may not be any exJWs who care enough to make the effort to try and photograph him. Heck, there may not be many who are aware of his situation or where he moved to after he "left" the GB. In the grand scheme of things, he's just not that big of a deal.

While I am still impressed that so little information on him has emerged, I also realize that there's only so much we can find out. And the effort is probably far too great for most people, just for the sake of a photo or a soundbite. I think we will eventually learn more, but it might take some time.

12

Marcial--News and Update on Atlantis!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

news on the person you call (atlantis!).

(before he came to simon's board he was called the twin, the crawler, the titan, the scanner, and many other names to hide his identity.

he has never been caught and to this day the watchtower society has never known who he was.

TonusOH

Thank you for the update, Petra.

7

storm Helene-help plans?

by enoughisenough in

out of curiosity, i went to the jw website to see if they had posted anything about helene, it's damage, and what their relief plans may be, i any.

i looked in the news and in video sections to see if there were any postings.

i couldn't find anything.

TonusOH

They can pocket insurance money while using unpaid JW labor to perform repair work. But that is for locations that suffer damage, of course. I am not aware that they ever set up aid stations or send supplies as part of relief efforts.

Thankfully, there are probably plenty of other charitable organizations (including religious ones) that will provide JWs with food and medicine, without asking questions. They won't even know they are JWs, unless they set up a cart nearby...