Posts by TonusOH

73

JWN, 23 years posting Blondie

by blondie in

jw
friends

can i call you friends, i think so after 23 years posting here.

i am dismayed how jwn is being "dominated" or taken over by a few posters, peppering the comments.

in the past, the admin did not approve of this and did remove some posters from jwn.

I actually don't mind the long comments when they are part of an active discussion. The topic SBF started ("How did JWs arrive at a clearer...") has a lot of very lengthy posts, but they're delving into an area that has centuries of research and theory and discussion. I just stay out of those, but I don't see them as a problem, because there are people taking part and having an in-depth discussion. Way over my head, but not a problem as I see it.

The conspiracy theory stuff has gotten tiring, because it consists of dumping bad information in large quantities in order to avoid having to discuss any of it. The only time those are interesting is when two nuts start throwing crap at each other because they've latched on to conspiracies that are in opposition. Because the whole thing is based on acres of complicated gibberish, those exchanges can be amusing for a short time. Nothing is more effective than having them hold mirrors up to one another.

6

The Bible Does Not Say

by blondie in

jw
friends

the wts often uses the phrase about then follows with their idea of what their god meant.

i have p0sted some of the most recent.

it is worth a look at more.

TonusOH

This is what the WTS leadership has always done. Russell felt that he was the only one who could interpret scripture, and he claimed that reading his Studies in the Scriptures books was better than reading the Bible. The GB interprets the Bible for the rank-and-file, and they discourage JWs from coming to their own conclusions.

When they talk about what 'the Bible does not say,' they are stepping in to fill in that blank, because they believe themselves to be divinely inspired and the only source of light. Even with the occasional confession that they're mere fallible men, they want the rank-and-file to see them as the only reliable source of Biblical interpretation.

56

Annual Meeting live updates

by ukpimo in

i have obtained the live link for the annual meeting tomorrow:.

annual meeting live link.

the meeting will begin at 9:45am eastern time, for those of us in the uk, that will be 2:45pm.

TonusOH

It might be too much work to try to restrict it to JWs only. Sometimes I wonder if more exJWs watch it than JWs do. I'm not sure it would have been something I would want to sit through when I was a JW. Then again, I can't imagine sitting through it now. So maybe it's just me.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

Simon: They begin at least 100 years after his claimed life.

To drive this point home, the post after yours mentions the following:

Mara Bar Serapion (born 50 AD). The original letter that may contain references to Christianity was written sometime between 73 AD and 300 AD.

Early Christian Writers (ca 50-157 AD), bearing in mind that none of their original writings have been found, just copies of copies of copies, none before the second century, if I am not mistaken.

Thallus (ca 55 AD), whose writings are lost. A reference (800 AD) to a reference (220 AD) of his writings appears to be what remains.

Josephus (ca 93 AD), whose mentions of Jesus are either mistaken or very likely a forgery.

Pliny the Younger, born around 61 AD.

In other words, god took on a body of flesh, came to Earth, performed miracles and gave moving speeches, caused an earthquake and eclipse and raised many dead on the day he died... and no one thought to talk about him for some 50-200 years.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: But you can't say he didn't let you know he was on the way.

People have been warning us that Jesus's arrival is imminent for the past two thousand years. With few exceptions, those warnings have had the expectation that the event would happen within the lifetime of those who first heard them. Those warnings continue to this day; I spent decades spreading this warning from door-to-door myself! I spent all of those years hearing (and believing) people say that the end was so close, that it might be any day now. My mother was convinced it would happen before the end of the 70s. Then the 80s. Then the 90s. She is convinced it will happen before the end of the 2020s.

The problem isn't that we haven't been warned. The problem is that we are constantly promised that he will arrive very, very soon. That his appearance is imminent. That it's closer than we think. That it may already be too late!!! When we point out that this has been going on for centuries, we are told that god works on a different timeline, and he is patient, and so on. It's a steady diet of "Jesus will return tomorrow, count on it" sprinkled with "don't be so impatient" when people start to get tired of it.

In any other facet of your life, you would recognize this as the classic "boy who cried wolf" scenario and ask people to stop wasting everyone's time. But this is religious belief, and the potential stakes are so high that behavior that we would otherwise dismiss becomes compelling. Think about how long these warnings have been made, how frequently they are made, the nature of these promises, and the fact that nothing ever happens.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: Are you going to wait until you actually see Jesus in the flesh?

That works for me.

3032

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

TonusOH

There is usually a rebound a few days later, but he's inching towards 300.

He'll probably react by going on another holiday.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

FreeTheMasons: I can tell you you're about to be run over by a bus, but if you don't want to heed the warning, it doesn't matter how much I tell you about the evidence I've seen.

If you tell Pete that a bus is approaching and he looks and doesn't see a bus, it's very likely that there is no bus. Religious figures --including no shortage of Christians-- have been warning us about an oncoming bus for centuries now, and the road remains clear. At some point, we may begin to get the impression that there is no bus, regardless of how sincere the warnings are meant to be.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

ukpimo: So you're saying there is an off chance that someone could be believable, but only if we actually lived at the time that person lived?

I'm saying that it is reasonable to accept that a person existed at a particular time in history, as so many people have. And it is reasonable to accept that they did things a normal person could do, like give speeches and promote charity and experience mistreatment or even death at the hands of their enemies. Even if we don't know any of this for sure, it's not outside of the norm. It happens all the time. It happens today.

If we say that a person who existed also performed miracles, or was assigned a task by an angel, or by a deity... these are not things that happen frequently. They may not even happen at all. Even when we cannot determine for certain that a person existed in the past (due to the lack of evidence in the archeological record), we can accept that they probably did. And we can accept some claims at face value, if they describe actions that are not out of the ordinary.

Because the evidence is so sparse, claims that any historical figure did extraordinary things must be met with skepticism, and two reasons come to mind: for one, as the evidence for past figures becomes more reliable, such claims conveniently begin to dry up. Two, people will accept such claims for one figure, but reject those claims for all others. This isn't based on a specific and unbiased approach, but on what the person already believes, which is a bad way to approach evidence.

189

What evidence is there for a biblical jesus?

by Touchofgrey in

is there any independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed and did the things that the bible said he did?.

the four gospels were written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events, so can't be considered as eyewitness accounts.

i think that there may have been a apocalyptic preacher who was executed by the romans and the story evolved from their.

TonusOH

You don't have to convince me that Smith and Mohammad were crappy people. However, that's not my point. Both of those men are far better attested to than Jesus, but the fact that they existed does not convince Christians that their more extravagant claims are true. "This person existed" is simply not sufficient.

On the other hand, there are millions --billions, even-- of people who do believe that Smith and Mohammad were divinely inspired. Why? Presuppositions. Very powerful, yet very clearly unreliable. If we apply the same approach to all of these claims, they all fall short. To the extent that they are believed, it is entirely dependent on what we believed before we had a chance to put them to the test.