jp1692

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Posts by jp1692

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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

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  jp1692

  This is an undeniable fact with over 100 years of legal controversies to prove it: The WTBTS uses the LAW (Read: legal system) to serve its own selfish ends every time. But they even more easily disregard what is MORAL and/or RIGHT every time if it might cost them $$$.
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

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  2. 
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  jp1692

  JD, your answer is funny. You are obviously still a JW apologist, at least on some level.

  What the courts LATER decided is one thing. The fact remains, that WT did not initially comply.

  BTW, that was only one example. There are countless others here, UK and OZ.
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  20

  Is There Anywhere To Go for an Outed JW elder/pedophile enabler?

  by mrmagic in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  since the australian royal commission, a lot of jw elders have been outed for either being pedophiles/molesters or for enabling it.

  the jw elders who enabled it, are publicly outed to their community online and offline.

  it's become a congregational matter with the entire kingdom hall and someone said that this elder would lose his eldership possibly, due to it "being known in the congregation and community" that he enabled child sexual abuse.

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  jp1692

  Mr. Magic: someone said that this elder would lose his eldership possibly, due to it "being known in the congregation and community" that he enabled child sexual abuse. Is that even possible?

  Well let's hope that's true.

  Seriously, this group is so incestuous with their beliefs, rules and regulations that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that their petty ways (meant to protect only the organization and no one else) implode on their own: collateral damage.
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jp1692

  JD: Watchtower has been mostly complying with the [court] orders

  That does not appear to be even remotely true. There are countless instances all around the world of WT refusing to comply with court orders. Also, they redacting important information when they do and they often simply stonewall.

  Heck, in 2014 when Gerrit Lösch was subpoenaed to appear in the Superior Court of California, County of San Diego, to testify at a deposition in a child abuse case, he just didn’t show. Instead, his WT attorney filed a bullshit affidavit lyingly saying that Lösch does “not answer to Watchtower” and that the “Watchtower does not have, and never has had, any authority” over him.

  • Declaration of Gerrit Lösch

  In this case, the WTBTS received a $13.5 million judgment against it for its complicity in the abuse suffered by Jose Lopez at the hands of Gonzalo Campos. One of the reasons why the lawsuit went so badly for Watchtower was due to its failure to comply with various court orders, including requests for documents and an appearance by Lösch at a deposition.
  
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jp1692

  JD: Does everyone think like you and feel that if they break a law in exposing the Watchtower and then face some negative consequences that it is unfair because Watchtower gets away, with what they feel are crimes.

  That's a bit of a world salad, but let me at least clarify this point: I was not interested in "exposing the Watchtower." I wanted a recording of the elders admitting to wrongdoing. I needed it to be their own voices which other people could recognize.
  

  This was personal.
  
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jp1692

  JD: I just don't think it is personally worth risking a criminal conviction when there are other ways.

  But what do you do when there are no "other ways"?

  The "founding fathers" believed there was no other way. They were willing to accept the consequences. Had the Americans lost the Revolutionary War they'd all be hung or shot as traitors and they knew it. The Declaration of Independence was a declaration of war and has high treason against the British crown.
  

  [BTW: could you please put in some paragraph breaks occasionally? It'd make your posts easier to read. Thanks!]
  
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jp1692

  JD, you raise a lot of issues that are significant moral dilemmas. These are not questions that are easily answered. Indeed, I believe every individual must consider them for themselves.
  

  Again, I appreciate the distinction between what is legal or lawful and what is morally right or wrong.
  

  I wouldn't be surprised to find that many of us here on this forum have changed our minds over time about how we would deal with things and how we do now.

  Once, many years ago when I was in a "judicial hearing," I secretly recorded it. When the elders asked me if I was recording the meeting I lied and said "No." I had not even the slightest twinge of guilt. You should know, as I did at the time, that it is illegal in the state in which I live to record a conversation without the mutual consent of ALL parties present. I knew that and did it anyways. Why did I do this?

  The particular elders I was dealing with had done several things which were very wrong and I wanted to get a recording of them admitting it in case I needed it for future reference. (Because they had a false sense of security, I got my admissions from them. So far I have not needed to use it, but the drama is not over yet ... I still have that recording just in case.)

  You should also know that I was also willing to accept whatever consequences I might have had to face in the extremely unlikely event that my "crime" ever became known to the authorities. It was a calculated risk.

  I had researched the statutes before the meeting and found that the absolute worst consequences I could possibly face was a fine of a few thousand dollars and maybe a few months in jail. After consulting with my legal adviser I was advised that none of this was likely to happen, but I was willing to take that risk, however small, to get the evidence I needed against the elders. Realistically, do you think the local police anywhere in the USA would care that someone illegally recorded a "judicial meeting" at a Kingdom Hall? Not likely. What judge would give a flying fuck? Probably none.
  

  From a pragmatic point of view, the only ones that would/could be able to bring any legal pressure against me would be the elders. And then they'd have to deal with their own very incriminating statements now being publicly available. So I felt an acceptable level of comfortable with my decision.

  Was what I did illegal? Technically yes. Was it wrong? No, at least I don't think so. In fact, I felt compelled to do it no matter what. I felt then and still feel now that I actually had no other choice. All these years later I still feel completely justified.
  

  Again, it's a long standing tradition in this country: if you don't like a law, feel free to break it. Just be willing to accept the possible consequences whatever they may be. Civil disobedience is a great American tradition that is underutilized in my opinion.

  PS: You may be aware of the many YouTube videos that people have posted of "elders' meetings" and "judicial hearings." So far as I know, no one has ever been prosecuted for secretly recording these. The fact that they post them publicly with impunity shows the WTBTS and the local bodies of elders have no stomach to try to prosecute these people.

  Don't misunderstand me. What most of those people did was probably illegal in their local jurisdiction. But was it wrong? I don't think so. You'll have to decide for yourself.
  
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  jp1692

  You're welcome JD.

  Personally, I was expecting and hoping for more of a conversational response. We read what you write and respond; you read what we write and respond. There is affirmation, disagreement, consideration, acknowledgement and debate.

  Knee-jerk "Thank yous" are not really what most of us here want or need.

  We want intellectual engagement. Something conspicuously missing in any and all KHs around the earth.

  jp
  
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  29

  What religions/organizations aren't a cult?

  by Jules Saturn in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so we've already established that most religions can be classified as high control groups, we can name the wbts, church of scientology, lds, etc.

  the list goes on and on.

  but are there any religions or organizations that aren't classified as a high control group or aren't as bad as the ones i've just mentioned?

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  jp1692

  Eliyahu Federman, a civil rights activist and writer, observed that:

  “The distinction between cult and religion lies squarely in how those leaving or those wanting to leave are treated.” - When organized religion becomes a cult (The Huffington Post).

  
  
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  103

  Using Illegal Means for Righteous Activism

  by John Davis in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wanted to get people's opinion on something.

  how do you feel when people use illegal means while performing their activism to shed light on the watchtower.

  there have been people who have illegally recorded conversations with elders and with branch offices or at meetings.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jp1692

  Um yeah JD, it's just good internet forum etiquette.