For all it's worth, I did know of Carrier's work. But I do see your point. Would I be able to respond to his book? No. I admit I am no expert. I only read works of experts to form my own opinions. I will reconsider my stance against Carrier.
Saename
JoinedPosts by Saename
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88
After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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Saename
cofty, I said that there is not a single scholar employed at a university or college. To my knowledge, Carrier is not employed at either university or college. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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After Jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not a fallen angel).
by quincemyles inafter jesus fasted for 40 days, he was tempted by a man (not an evil angel) to turn stones into bread, jump from the temple and bow.
the tester was a pharisee of the ruling class.
jehovah's witnesses believe the tester to have been an evil spirit or leader of fallen angels named satan the devil.
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Saename
cofty - The Christ Myth theory is a minority position among scholars but it is not absent. The most recent contribution to the field is Dr Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason to Doubt".
Perhaps you should read it for an appreciation of both sides of the debate.
I know about both sides. I happen to heartily disagree with Carrier.
punkofnice - Looks like you have an overbloated view of yourself.
Possibly. I admit that I am arrogant.
punkofnice - No, I won't go away tail between my legs and then come back begging for forgiveness from you because you look down your nose at people.
Okay. I don't look down at people. I look down at certain people.
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Other Religions use the Name JEHOVAH too
by UnDisfellowshipped inare jehovah's witnesses really the only religion that promotes and preaches the name of jehovah?.
jw's are always claiming that they are the only religion that preaches and uses the name jehovah, and that is why only they will be saved.
for example, look at this quote from the watchtower:.
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Saename
atomant - One would think if the GB are the channel whom god operates through god would at least tell them his proper name.
Exactly. This is especially laughable because the name Jehovah comes from joining the name JHVH (YHWH) with the title Adonai, which literally means "my Lords" but is usually translated to "my Lord" or "Lord."
When you join the consonants from JHVH with the vowels from Adonai, you get "Jahovah." From there, you get to Jehovah. It's a completely man-made name.
(By the way, is it not funny that half of that name is a title, not a name, which is translated to "Lord"? I've heard Witnesses object to people who use "Lord" as God's name (think: the Catholic church) because it's only a title, not a name.)
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Why Judaism and the Torah ?
by Crazyguy inso i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.
gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .
the practice of emperor worship etc.
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Saename
deegee - Please note that in my previous comments I never stated anything about the reason for Constantine's conversion to Christianity
This is how I understood it. I thought you were saying that Constantine converted to Christianity for political reasons. I've heard people claim it before, so I thought this was what you were implying. I think the whole thing about "the political value" of Christianity is total nonsense, so I objected to it.
Now I see that you might have actually been talking about why Constantine sought to resolve the disputes within Christianity, which is an altogether different matter.
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Why Judaism and the Torah ?
by Crazyguy inso i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.
gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .
the practice of emperor worship etc.
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Saename
Doug Mason, thanks for your post. I am actually surprised, but I guess deegee told you about our conversation. Having that said, I am not sure whether we understand each other. I will try to make myself clear once and for all.
While Constantine elevated the Paulines, the greater influence came with Theodosius in 381. But if you disagree, that is your right to do so, but when you disagree, please remain agreeable.
Yup... We clearly misunderstand each other. I am not talking about whether the orthodox church became popularized after Constantine's conversion. Before he became Christian, only about 7–10% (probably even less than that) of the Roman population was Christian. By the end of the fourth century, however, it jumped up to around 50%. That's a big difference. So, yes, I do agree with you that Constantine and Theodosius influenced Christianity. Theodosius even made it the state religion. But, again, this is not what I was talking about and disagreeing with in my previous posts.
What I was talking about is why Constantine became Christian. deegee made claims that it was for political reasons—to bring unity and peace to the Roman Empire. I believe that this is total nonsense. This is what I was talking about, and I gave reasons for my stance in one of my previous posts.
I hope we understand each other better now. I am looking forward to reading your study. (Does anybody still use the word "shall"?)
My desire is to show that the Watchtower lies. I am concerned at the human damage they cause through trashing families, risking lives because of their stance on the medical use of blood, and the mental damage they cause by forcing people to believe things they do not give full mental assent to.
I totally agree, by the way.
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Will Jehovah...
by watson inwhen jehovah brings armageddon, will he let me live long enough to witness the deaths of my children and grand children because they didn't believe in him?
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since i've faded and i don't promote worshiping him anymore, i am just wondering.. at least i'd know for sure what kind of god he is?.
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Saename
watson - When Jehovah brings Armageddon, will he let me live long enough to witness the deaths of my children and grand children because they didn't believe in him?
Pray to him about it.
"Because of this I say to you, whatever things you pray and ask for, believe that you receive them, and they will be given to you" (Mark 11.24).
Edit: While I was translating the verse, I noticed that 2+2=5 already said that... but he added a nice twist to that: "He is a loving father."
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Watchtower No. 6 - More stupidity
by ttdtt inso one of the many stupid articles deals with getting answers from the bible.. 1st question is about prayer.. ---would you say that he answers the prayers of .
some people.
what the bible says.
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Saename
Landy - Schoolboy error.
You'd have been better off stealing it and praying for forgiveness ;)
I love that post!
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JW and the Sabbath
by Andromeda inhello brothers and sisters and truth seekers,.
i am an active jehovah's witness.
i don't believe in 1914 and i'm tototally against their way of dealing with abuse cases.
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Saename
To my knowledge, you can observe the Sabbath and still be a Jehovah's Witness. A Sabbath is simply about not working on Saturday (unless you persist it be Sunday, but then I'm not sure why you would want to adhere to other Biblical rules but not this one...) If you choose not to work on Saturday, which in and of itself would not be participating in unscriptural holidays, you're completely fine—but again, to my knowledge only.
But if you don't believe in 1914... Well, you're gonna get disfellowshipped. The whole belief in the Governing Body is based on this year. And the whole belief in the Armageddon. So...
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Why Judaism and the Torah ?
by Crazyguy inso i have been studying early christianity a bit and noticed that before christianity really took off after 325 ce, there were a lot of religions.
gnostics teachings , belief in all sorts of different gods from egypt to greece .
the practice of emperor worship etc.
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Saename
deegee, you completely misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about whether or not Constantine chose Pauline Christianity. I know this is what you were talking about, and I'm fine with that. What I was talking about is whether Constantine wanted to bring unity and peace to the Empire by converting to Christianity. This is wrong. This is what I was talking about. I was debunking this, not whether he chose Pauline Christianity. Constantine did not convert to Christianity in order to bring peace and unity to the Empire. Any critical scholar to my knowledge would tell you that.
By the way, since I'm already responding to your misunderstanding, I need to address two myths that you either stated as facts or implied in your post (which then I may have misunderstood):
1) You say that Constantine made Christianity the state religion. Here is a quote from your post:
Constantine caused the survival of Christianity, having made it the formally recognized state religion and the recognized format was Paul's religion.
This is completely wrong. Constantine did not establish Christianity as the state religion. This is a very persistent myth. Which is completely and utterly wrong. (Where do people get these ideas from...?)
2) In the below quote, you seem to be implying that Constantine instituted the Council of Nicea in order to bring harmony and unity to the Roman Empire. (This is how I at least understand it because of your use of the phrase "For that reason.")
Constantine became closely involved in it, bringing with him the Roman desire for harmony and unity. For that reason, he instituted the church-wide Council at Nicea, its task being the setting of the date for Easter.
If this is what you're implying, you need to know that the Council of Nicea was not about bringing "the Roman desire for harmony and unity." It was about establishing consensus on the nature of Jesus as Christ (which you yourself say in your post, so I'm not sure how you got the thing in the quote above so wrong...)
On a further note, you seem to be using Doug Mason as your source. Keep in mind that he is just an online blogger whose desire is to debunk the Watchtower (which is fine with me.) But if you're gonna use him as a source for actual history, then I don't know why I even bother to talk to you. If you said that Constantine established Christianity as the state religion (which is a myth and everybody who has ever studied history knows this) because this guy Doug Mason wrote so, then you should consider stop using him as a source. If someone thinks that Constantine established Christianity as the state religion, this is a big—and I mean a BIG—sign that he or she knows nothing about history. Literally nothing since this is basic stuff...
Edit:
the Roman desire for harmony and unity, this time within the Church, manifested itself in 381 CE when Emperor Theodosius instructed that Arianism was not acceptable
Nope. Roman desire for harmony and unity...? Again...? Nope. It was only about establishing a united Christendom. (And saying that "Theodosius instructed that Arianism was not acceptable" is an understatement :D)