Posts by Apognophos

22

Does it ever just hit you...It all may be a dream

by LevelThePlayingField in

that the paradise may or may not be real?

that the things you have been taught for many years from the jehovah's witnesses may not really be as they say?

has it really ever really hit you with that "pow" of reality ever?

Apognophos

When I was a teenager I went through a phase where I thought life might be an illusion. Looking back at my writings from that time, I can see that I was suffering from the strain of being expected to believe in so many things that I didn't have direct evidence for -- angels watching my every move, an impending Armageddon, a conspiracy theory among scientists to promote evolution, etc. The writings read a lot like something a schizophrenic person would produce: lots of bizarre fantasies and contradictory statements. I was afraid to openly question my beliefs, and it was mixing me up inside so bad that I didn't know up from down.

104

Farewell

by EdenOne in

"don't be dismayed by good-byes.

a farewell is necessary before you can meet again.

and meeting again, after moments or lifetimes, is certain for those who are friends.

Apognophos

Okay, back. I feel like I missed some posts... people seem to be quoting things I never read.

Simon wrote:

I think in general *less* moderation is usually better. For various reasons, many exJWs have issues with anything they perceive as authority.

As I've read this forum over time, I've realized increasingly how true this is. Apparently a lot of people here were abused by authority in the religion. That certainly wasn't my experience as a JW, so I might be accused of being unsympathetic to that issue, but as far as I'm concerned, enforcing standard forum etiquette is not something that should be done lightly just because it upsets people.

I say this mainly because once something hurtful is said, it can't ever be totally taken back (though apologies help, obviously), so it's better to prevent escalating arguments from going all the way so they don't create long-lasting grudges.

Of course things that cross the line are removed but we will not be going back to the scolding / telling people off type approach that some used because I think it get's people's backs up.

Doesn't it seem... inconsistent... to say that exiting JWs should be treated so roughly by regular posters here because we don't want to upset... regular posters by enforcing etiquette? Who really needs to be treated more kindly: a long-time poster who already went through a post-JW religious phase, and is now angry at religion, and maybe has some left-over issues with authority, or a shell-shocked TTATT newbie?

But on the flip side, it means moderating won't always be immediate and visible and people have to accept that.

It's hard to know how to respond to this without knowing specifically what you mean, but just to reiterate an old point of mine, it's customary to say something when removing posts. Presumably you, Simon, can see what moderators do, and I know that you did say something when removing some posts in this thread, but if you're telling us that most of the moderators' actions are invisible, then how can anyone other than the parties who had posts edited/deleted learn any lessons? But perhaps I am arguing against something you're not really saying.

I will be looking to expand the moderator team and also provide more community controls

+1. Gefällt mir-angaben. Twitter heart. (And by the way, if posters actually know who is performing moderation, then you won't be the sole target of all the "drama" PMs ; )

(but some then complain about likes and dislikes, sheesh)

Yes, any reputation system will get complaints, but that's okay. This system is better than the type that lets people submit a reason with their +/- rep that the recipient can see. Those lead to nothing good.

nicolaou wrote:

Personally, I try to be patient and polite with all doubting Jehovah's Witnesses who come here[...].
But.
Once individuals become ex-JWs the game changes. [...] For god's sake, we are adults aren't we?!

Sure, but what some people are objecting to is the tone with which arguments are conducted. Calling someone's god a monster, for example, is completely ineffective in getting them to question their beliefs. The same concept could be conveyed much more diplomatically. In my experience, if you want to actually win someone over to your side, you have to do it with kindness. We did it as Witnesses when preaching to people; how could so many have forgotten this principle when they left the religion?

Ever since I started coming here, I've seen nothing but abuse heaped on Christians who actively proselytize here in even the mildest manner. It's not justified by saying that you have personally decided that they are now an ex-JW and thus not worthy of politeness. Most people here have said that the process of going from JW to ex-JW takes years, not months. It's not a sudden, binary flip.

I think it's especially important to remember that JW lurkers are reading these threads. We should write with the complete audience in mind. No need to scare anyone off by implying that they shouldn't be questioning the "truth" if they aren't ready to cast off all their belief in God. On its good days, this community can be an inviting place for frightened and questioning JWs, but on its bad days, it probably does as much good as the apostate with a megaphone outside a convention.

104

Farewell

by EdenOne in

"don't be dismayed by good-byes.

a farewell is necessary before you can meet again.

and meeting again, after moments or lifetimes, is certain for those who are friends.

Apognophos

Simon, please calm down. I can tell you're worked up from the fact that you clearly didn't read my post carefully. I acknowledged that you cannot personally enforce civility; that's why I mentioned a moderation team. You used to have several helpers. I would never suggest that an administrator should be doing most of the moderation work (in fact I have been on many forums, and have never seen an admin as active as you are in both moderation and discussion over such a long period, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's burning you out).

I explained pretty clearly why people and beliefs are not separate; please read that part of my post again if you are going to reply to it. But just to clarify, I'm not advocating some opposite extreme from how the forum currently works, where nobody is allowed to disagree with faith-based or bad-science posts. It's all a matter of how we correct somebody. The concept of etiquette went out the window a long time ago on this forum and I think it happened gradually so that you haven't fully realized how vicious the tone has become here.

That's why, when people call Viviane names, I see it as an unavoidable consequence of the forum's management style. Without a moderation team requiring people to behave better, the forum is naturally going to degenerate into personal attacks, because people are angry at how they are treated, and they feel like they have no other recourse since no one is putting a stop to it. I'm not saying it's justified -- just describing a natural law of human behavior and how to prevent it.

And Simon, I'm sorry if anyone is being abusive towards you, but you don't need to tolerate that. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how to run a forum, but "warning -> temp ban -> perm ban" is the standard process of escalating a response to a misbehaving poster, whether they're being aggressive with a regular member or with you personally. Why is that process not being used here?

(I won't be able to respond further until much later today, as I have to head out on a day trip for work now.)

104

Farewell

by EdenOne in

"don't be dismayed by good-byes.

a farewell is necessary before you can meet again.

and meeting again, after moments or lifetimes, is certain for those who are friends.

Apognophos

Things would not have gotten to this point if you had been enforcing civility on this forum, Simon. There's no way you haven't noticed Viviane's thousands of argument-baiting posts. S/he has been injecting toxin into this community for quite some time, and it has been building up. I know that you are only one man, but that's where a moderation team is supposed to come in handy. Someone saw fit to ban Viviane once before under his/her previous user name (an erstwhile moderator?), but apparently the same behavior is now tolerated that was once considered unacceptable.

I don't believe EdenOne should quit the forum over this. But I do believe the problem goes beyond Viviane, and extends to anyone who drops into faith-based threads to deposit mocking remarks which are designed to poke at other people. This is a pattern of behavior which has been allowed to proliferate here, and it's 50% of the reason I no longer post here (the other 50% being free time). For anyone to hide behind the idea of "only attacking beliefs, not the person" is to pretend that people do not hold certain beliefs dear, that they do not have sacred cows. Some of the people here once became violently ill when they started to realize that they were not in "the truth"; are you really telling them that beliefs are just a superficial thing like a piece of clothing that one can take off and exchange for another; that attacking their beliefs is a considerate way of speaking to them?

We have had numerous threads on this subject of rude posters, and they have often been started by agnostic/atheist posters who were not personally offended by other posters directly, but took issue with what was happening. I participated enthusiastically in one of these threads, arguing for the kind of moderation that is commonly employed on other forums (i.e., a rule about being civil to each other). Finally you, Simon, made a post where you clearly stated that you were in favor of mocking foolish beliefs, and I realized that I was wasting my breath, and lost a lot of my attachment to this forum. Since the personality of any organization comes from the leadership, there's no way that civility can be enforced when the leader(s) do not will it.

Your personal journey away from religion, which started over a decade ago, has been given precedence over the concept of running a tolerant forum for people who are just now learning the truth about their religion and figuring out how to cope. Any discussions over science and philosophy should naturally take a back seat to the needs of people who are in such a vulnerable place and can use the help of others who have been there. And yet the message this forum sends on a daily basis is that it is inappropriate to even consider passing through "Christianity" or "spirituality" as a phase on one's way out of the cult. That is not a sympathetic way to run a forum.

I know it's not pleasant to have random posters popping up telling you how to do your job. And you only have so much free time to manage disputes between people. And I don't think it's necessary or fruitful to require posters to apologize formally. And I see that you have asked Viviane to be less argumentative in the future. But please don't act blind-sided, as if this all came out of nowhere, when Viviane and other posters have been antagonizing people for years and multiple threads have been started over this issue. The community is trying to tell you something here. Please listen to it.

49

Types Of Witnesses

by garybuss in

jw
friends

types of witnesses.

1. religious witness.

these are usually converts and seldom stay.

Apognophos

This is a really good list. Whenindoubt, what on Earth are you talking about? The fact that you think Ray and Fred were brothers is indicative of the fact that you need to read more, especially CoC.

I was a 1; although a born-in, the rest describes me to a T. But I was a rebel without a cause because I was never given anything to object to, or at least any opportunities to rebel against anything. I lived in a very straight-laced congregation where things were done right, and I was given no cause for stumbling or a reason to fall on my sword over some injustice done to someone. Eventually, with an absence of any TTATT information coming my way, but a feeling that the religion was largely a rat race, I became a 3, disconnected and apathetic. I was there for at least 10 years before learning TTATT.

203

My Explanation of Why They Got it Wrong About Blood Using Only the NWT

by cofty in

10 " any israelite or any alien living among them who eats any bloodi will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.

12 therefore i say to the israelites, "none of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood.

15 'anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean.

Apognophos

Oh, that's interesting. I've wondered about that seemingly-redundant language in Acts too. I thought "strangled meat" might refer to meat with blood in it and "blood" itself might refer to products made from blood like blood sausage.

26

Site issues: Dec 30 Update

by Simon in

first of all, some apologies - i had planned to spend the last couple of days getting everyone signed in to the new site and sorting account issues out but i wasn't getting over the flu as i thought, i got worse.

i've probably had 4 hours sleep in the last few days.

anything that requires too much thinking isn't going to happen right now.

Apognophos

Sorry to hear it. I figured there was a reason we weren't hearing much from you. Get well soon! I'll try not to pile on with too many more bug reports :->

180

Please post new forum feedback or questions here

by Simon in

well, the switchover happened - there were a couple of things i had to fix which meant the posting was disabled for longer than i planned but it's now enabled and some people have already posted.. if you have any questions about the new format or suggestions on how to improve it, please post them here.. if you are having trouble signing in or posting then you'll need to email me instead.. many thanks to everyone for their patience during the changeover !.

Apognophos

Point to someone's avatar to get the pop-up, and you can click on their topic or thread count. Topics Started is not really working right, though.

180

Please post new forum feedback or questions here

by Simon in

well, the switchover happened - there were a couple of things i had to fix which meant the posting was disabled for longer than i planned but it's now enabled and some people have already posted.. if you have any questions about the new format or suggestions on how to improve it, please post them here.. if you are having trouble signing in or posting then you'll need to email me instead.. many thanks to everyone for their patience during the changeover !.

Apognophos

You guys are small fries, mine is stuck at 21 :-)

Here's a slightly-alarming bug I found today:

Notice the middle search result of these three. I was searching for "Russell quote" at the time.

180

Please post new forum feedback or questions here

by Simon in

well, the switchover happened - there were a couple of things i had to fix which meant the posting was disabled for longer than i planned but it's now enabled and some people have already posted.. if you have any questions about the new format or suggestions on how to improve it, please post them here.. if you are having trouble signing in or posting then you'll need to email me instead.. many thanks to everyone for their patience during the changeover !.

Apognophos

Search terms that include quote marks (") cause a Server Error. I guess this means we can't do phrase searches?