Posts by Apognophos

24

CREATIVE "DAYS" - What do JWs believe?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

a few weeks ago, i asked you to critique my website article on dinosaurs (http://www.jwbeliefs.com/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-dinosaurs/).

it was pointed out that much of what i wrote depends on the creative "days" being relatively short - something i believe jws teach.. after being prompted to review my conclusions/research, i was more convinced than ever that jws promote relatively short creative days.

the nail in the coffin was the teaching that day seven is indicative of the length of the other six days (i.e.

Apognophos

I basically agree with your findings, Hotdogs, except:

FACT: JWs have always taught that "day" seven can be used to infer the length of the other days. This has been explicitly stated as recent as 1998 (see Creator Book, quoted above). Nothing has been published that contradicts or revises this teaching.

Although the Creator book is obviously more recent than Insight, leaving_quietly's Insight quote shows that the Society has considered the possibility that the other days were not 7,000 years. Notice the phrase at the end "at least thousands of years in length", which is allowing for a range of possible lengths for those days.

That being said, I think that it's probably an unpleasant thought for the higher-ups to contemplate the other six days being different lengths because it intrudes on the circular reasoning behind day 7 being 7,000 years. If the other days were longer then it brings into question why this one has to be 7,000 years and not longer. So most WT quotes do seem to be hinting that they want all days to be even in length, but they're still avoiding any definite statements about that.

For that reason I still urge caution in making an assertion about something which does not have direct quotes from the Society to back it up. I know it's tempting to say that they believe this since it places them into a clear conflict with science, but even in the Creator book they are only saying "the other days must be thousands of years long", without using any wording like "of equal length to day 7". We may think we know what they are getting at, but it's not spelled out, so it's easily deniable on their part.

FACT: If the "end" comes as soon as JWs say it will, "day" seven will end up being about 7000 years long.

FACT: All six creative days are described as encompasing "thousands" of years each. The only reason for this slightly vague choice of words is that JWs cannot pinpoint the date of the beginning of “day” seven (something they once tried to do: 1975 fiasco) and therefore cannot know exactly how long it will end up being.

No, day 7 is still exactly 7,000 years, in their opinion. It's just a question of when the day starts. Clearly Franz' date of 4026 B.C. was wrong; even if it were the date of Adam's creation, it seems that Eve's creation was more than 39 years later or else the 6,000 years would have been up by now and Armageddon would have come. This simply means that Eve's creation, the final act of day 6, happened after the fall of 3987 B.C. (if my math is right). It doesn't change the length of day 7 in the minds of the WT leadership.

30

Governing Bodies Secret Elder's training video on suicide leaked

by Watchtower-Free in

watchtower minions have pulled down jwsurveys links .

here's another one .. the gb should be held liable for this crap.

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/cvas6fcrc9zca94/shepherding_instructional_suicidal_widow.avi.

Apognophos

Am I the only one who always reads this thread title as "A training video for elders on how to commit suicide"? I can't be the only one.

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

You might want to stick to just the first two paragraphs in your post 189 (up until "Further to this"); it's a good conclusion to the Quran analogy that makes things a little more explicit for the JW (better to spell things out for him than leave him to connect any of the dots). As you said, the part about the inaccuracies in the "science" of Genesis is tricky because it could be going "too far" for the JW. I don't think that anybody can absorb a ton of contrary information at once, JW or not.

24

As a JW Did You Often Feel "Guilty" About Something?

by minimus in

jw
friends

if muslim is supposed to be the religion of peace, jehovah's witnesses has to be the religion of guilt..

Apognophos

Thankfully, not often. Though I do remember giving myself relief (if you know what I mean) once while I was aux pioneering and serving as an elder and I did feel a little guilt.

Once?! Is that a joke?

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Well, I do think this part might be over the head of the average Witness. It's hard to really give the subject a good treatment while also being brief, and the evidence for the "creation from chaos" reading is clear only after looking at related myths and discussions of Hebrew words like bereshit and tohu wabohu. So yeah, maybe just keep it pithy and give him something to think about with the Quran comparison.

24

CREATIVE "DAYS" - What do JWs believe?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

a few weeks ago, i asked you to critique my website article on dinosaurs (http://www.jwbeliefs.com/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-dinosaurs/).

it was pointed out that much of what i wrote depends on the creative "days" being relatively short - something i believe jws teach.. after being prompted to review my conclusions/research, i was more convinced than ever that jws promote relatively short creative days.

the nail in the coffin was the teaching that day seven is indicative of the length of the other six days (i.e.

Apognophos

You've probably seen this before, right Hotdogs? This is the most recent mention I can find of the days being even in length:

*** w70 2/15 p. 120 The Days of Creation from God’s Viewpoint ***

Just how long, then, were these “days” of creation? The Bible gives us a clue as to the length of the seventh day. Since these “days” were all part of one ‘week,’ it would be reasonable to conclude that all these “days” were of the same length.
[...]

This accounts for 6,000 years. Is that the length of the seventh day? No, because we read that “God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred.” Its outcome must be “very good,” and that is not true of present world conditions; so the “day” must still be continuing. Actually these six thousand years have been, as it were, man’s workweek, in which he labored by the sweat of his face. But he will get rest during the coming thousand-year reign of Christ, which Bible chronology and fulfillment of Bible prophecy show is to begin very soon.—Gen. 2:3.

The seventh one thousand years of the seventh “day” will thus in itself be a sabbath. During it Satan and his demons will be bound. Christ and his anointed followers will rule with him as kings and priests. With what result? That all God’s enemies will be put beneath Christ’s feet. By means of this sabbath the seventh day will truly be sacred, for it will cause righteousness to flourish.—1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 20:1-6; Psalm 72.

Thus we find the seventh “day” of the creative week to be seven thousand years long. On the basis of the length of the seventh “day” it is therefore reasonable to conclude that each of the other six “days” also was a period of 7,000 years. This length of time would be ample for all that the Bible tells us took place on each of the six days of creation.

This passage also touches on the circular reasoning surrounding 7,000 days, which seems to be "Well, 6,000 years have passed so far, and the Thousand Year Reign must occur within this final day, so that makes 7,000", with no consideration of the possibility that maybe the day is 10,000 or 1,000,000 years long instead.

24

CREATIVE "DAYS" - What do JWs believe?

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

a few weeks ago, i asked you to critique my website article on dinosaurs (http://www.jwbeliefs.com/what-do-jehovahs-witnesses-believe-about-dinosaurs/).

it was pointed out that much of what i wrote depends on the creative "days" being relatively short - something i believe jws teach.. after being prompted to review my conclusions/research, i was more convinced than ever that jws promote relatively short creative days.

the nail in the coffin was the teaching that day seven is indicative of the length of the other six days (i.e.

Apognophos

I distinctly remember a couple years back a CO gave a long talk in which he talked about how Jesus had been hangin' out with Jehovah for at least 13.8 billion years since that's the age of the universe and jesus was around before that.

Yes, but remember, we established that the creation of the universe is not part of the seven days according to Witnesses (and other fundamentalists). So if scientists say the universe is 14 billion years old, then fine, it can be, because Genesis 1:1 is outside the creative week. But they can still believe the specific creation acts in Genesis 1 starting with light in verse 3 (which is said to refer to the appearance of light from the surface of the Earth, not the creation of light or stars) were 7,000 years.

I was forced to think more carefully about this when Hotdogs made his last topic, and I've been wondering if they really do mean to hide the fact that they still believe each of these days is 7,000 years. sir82's anecdote is very interesting in this regard. I guess now we need to see if anyone can come up with a quote from the Society about whether the days were necessarily the same length or not. In a way this whole exercise is extremely silly since, as far as I know, nobody's been able to figure out where 7,000 years even came from in the first place. But we have to be prepared to deal with silliness when discussing Watchtower teachings, right?

OTWO: Interesting math exercise. Just another number for you, the current overlapping teaching has a maximum limit of 2067 if you imagine that someone in the "second group" was anointed at age 25 in 1992 right before Fred Franz died, and that person then lived to 100. Of course the proverbial lifespan of "70-80 years" gives us 2037-2047 A.D. as the end date.

42

Creationism emails from a JW

by TheStumbler in

earlier this year, i received an email from a jw family member with a link to this video:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Yep, it's an interesting subject. I actually find the Chapter 1 creation story more attractive in a romantic sort of way when it's read correctly -- it starts off with darkness and water sloshing everywhere and then God puts it in order, exposes dry land, seals off the heavenly ocean, etc. Then there's the second, much less abstract creation account where God is just a potter working with clay, and going for walks in his Garden.

Ultimately though I think it requires an open mind as a pre-requisite to see these accounts for what they are. But once you see it, it's quite eye-opening and you realize you're peering into ancient cosmology and theology that no one actually believes anymore.

24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ruhkgqjug.

i wrote a long reply debunking the video (mostly copying talkorigins info).

Apognophos

Being a grammar Nazi doesn't make me any friends either