Trevor, Saint,
Well, I sat with a member (non-baptised) last night, and we discussed certain issues. I mentioned both say they are the "First and Last," so why would Jesus claim the same title as God, if he is inferior to God?
-"That does not make them equal, bec. I believe that they are not. He probably means firstborn", was the answer I got. (Trevor, unfortunately, I did not read your post re: "firstborn", otherwise I could have rebutted her), but after hearing that response, I immeadiately began to reason that there is no way she is going to even agree with me from a logical perspective-it is sad. Anyone can read that if both make the same claim, then if not the same, at least a level of equality exists.
I mentioned Isaiah 9:6 "....son is born...eternal father", but her response was Jesus is the father of us, and not God.
So we went back and forth, but she did concede I do make good arguments for my beliefs-WOW!!
Then, I mentioned the UN affair.
I had printed many articles from this website, and as she read them, she immeadiately said "Apostates, the first thing you should do is ask them why are they no longer JW's". This is a fair statement. I do believe I had asked one person here, and the response was "for 30 yrs. I had seen the lies and deception". My mistake was I did not mention this. (I have had this in my mind, it is common sense, I should have asked this earlier).
So now, I ask many of you, bec. I feel the best way to learn about an organization, is to hear from their representatives, but also what better way to learn than from hearing it from an ex member? After hearing both sides, I can make my own decision.
For the ex JW's here:
(1)Why are you no longer part of the JW?
(2)Do you believe in "standard" Christian beliefs? (Cross, Trinity)?
(3)If yes to above, what made you change your beliefs?
This is my mistake, I should have asked this first. I always thought JW's are so close, unless the person really did something bad, (adultery, killing, drugs), they would not leave the JW, (or be asked to leave).
I am in a position where I have something many people do not. (I think bec. I need to question every point, that is what lead me to this website, by doing a search for JW's). I now have two viewpoints about the JW. This is the best way for a person to learn. If the organization is just, and correct, then what I learn will refute the oppostion towards it. However, I can say that my Bible (KJV), supports my "standard" Christian belief, but to hear how it works on the inside is something that I can use when they talk to me. Even now, I say to her, "if you can prove me wrong in my Bible, I will listen to what you have to say, but prove me wrong first." I don't think they can, there are too many verses that show Jesus cannot be inferior to God.
Opinions will be opinions. Naturally, if one is an ex-member of an org., they may have biased views against it. The UN affair is a matter of FACT.
I presented to her the letter, and said "for some time now, the UN has been regarded as the beast by the JW. A letter has emerged showing affiliations with the UN. Granted, if you need to join them to do your work, ok I'll give that to you, but personally, I would not join the beast for anything. However, recent articles have shown a pro-UN viewpoint. How can the JW have a pro-beast viewpoint?"
"Well, I'm sure we had to join them for our work reasons, in order to accomplish certain goals we have", was the response.
I said "ok, but a form needs to be signed every year by the JW, and in that form are certain guidelines which include the NGO must 'support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;' how can you respect the beast? So we've gone from beast to pro-beast. This bothers me."
She will look into the matter and I look forward to her rebuttal. As I think of it, back in the 50's, 60's JW members probably died believing the UN was the beast. Today, the JW's are reading the same publications promoting the beast.
I understand now, that they have disassociated themselves from the UN, but history cannot be changed, we have 2 opposing views, from the same organization.
Another subject was Christy Harvey's rebuttal to "Should you Believe in the Trinity"? http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.htm (Thank you Trevor).
Christy does an excellent job of quoting the Anti-Nicene Fathers' writings. The JW article says these fathers did not support the Trinity. Christy claims they did support the Trinity, and quotes their writings which CLEARLY states their pro-Trinity view. Fortunately, Christy provides references to the exact page. My goal now, is to find these articles, sit down with my JW friend, and read them together. One of us will be proven wrong. I can't wait to get my hands on these writings!
Does anyone have in their posession these articles? (If so, scanned pics. would be GREATLY appreciated). Otherwise, does anyone know if they are easily attained? I work close to a library & bookstore, so I can try to find them there, plus there is the internet.
I notice this website is called "jehovas-witness.com/forum". This is a wonderful website, where both views can be discussed, and the truth become known. Are there any active JW's here? Are any reading this? How about a response?
As always, I thank you for your help!
Regards,
Suprashy
