Posts by suprashy

15

Latest Awake!

by ballistic in

jw
friends

have you seen the latest awake!?.

i'll be bringing out a few more issues.

any ideas?

suprashy

Thank you for the scans Trevor Scott!!

Regards,

Suprashy

31

MORE MAJOR WTS UN NEWS TO BE POSTED SOON

by hawkaw in

major news folks.. i have obtained the dpi directory for 1999/2000, published by the un's dpi in 1999. i have copied 19 relevant pages of this document.

lloyd barry's name and ciro's name are both mentioned.

also it gives the criteria etc.

Please keep us posted with your letters/responses. I am trying to get a "yet-to-be-baptised" person to at least do her own research, just like what you are doing now. I am very proud of you! U are finding out for yourself what the truth really is! Way to go!

Regards,

Suprashy

79

The watchtower is true

by billy in

jw
friends

just looking briefly on this board, i can see all the warnings given in the watchtower about those leaving the organisation and sinking into the mire of the world are true.. you are all sad losers.

suprashy

Hi people:

Being neither a JW or ex-JW, I find this website extremely informative. I have oft. wondered why JW's do not respond here. The truth is beautiful, and should be able to stand to ANY cross-examination. Therefore, wouldn't it be a great site if both JW, and ex-JW could debate here the issues of the UN, 1914, etc...?? I think for the inexperienced such as myself, that would be wonderful, and the truth would be found.

However, after reading these posts, I see references to JW's "not allowed" to enter such a site as this. Is this true? Is it really true that their freedom is taken away? I've been visiting this site for about a week now, and the answer is obvious.

Billy, however, if he is a JW, has ventured into this website. A direct disobedient act, if I understand correctly. He has done this for a reason. Now is an opportunity for him to see for himself what the truth is. If he believes in his religion, he should be able to defend all the issues presented on this site. Just having spoken with a JW a few days ago, I have learned trying to reason with them is impossible. Billy here has decided to do some independent research for himself. Something I have been trying to get this JW friend of mine to do for herself. It boggles my mind that she does not.

If we mock Billy, then we become what they teach him we are. (I use "we", bec. I am not a JW).

Billy, if u're around, I ask you, what do you think of the UN affair, and of all the other issues that are raised here (1914, and others)? What historical evidence do you have outside of WT articles, that support your doctrine? We have historical literature, Roman history, artifacts, etc.. to support traditional Christian thinking.

U can see that most people here have welcomed you, even those who have traded heated posts with you, have welcomed you too. :) :)

What do you say to all these issues? And yes, is it true that you are not allowed by the JW to visit certain websites such as this? If the JW is the truth, then armed with that truth, the JW should be free to go anywhere, defending their doctrine.

I would really like to hear from an active JW, and what they say to these issues. Thank you.

Regards,

Suprashy

13

Family member coming around

by TweetieBird in

jw
friends

i went out to eat last night with my neice.

we had a few drinks and started talking.

before i knew it the conversation turned to the subject of doubts about the organization and if i recall correctly (hard when you've had a couple) she is the one that brought the conversation up.

suprashy

Hi folks!

As I'm reading this thread, I thought now would be a time to mention what I've been thinking for the past days I have begun to study the JWs. When presented with a WT, don't people do their own research?? The first thing I did was do a search for JW on the net. I then searched books to show historical evidences of the traditional Christian faith. The evidence I have found is compelling, in favor of traditional Christianity (the cross, the consistency of Church teaching-no end of world prophecies, etc..).

So I can now honestly refute the JW doctrine, and back it up with historical evidence.

My question is, (not speaking for those born into the JW, that is totally different), but how does one get entrapped into the JW org. without doing any independent research? When one buys a car, don't we read about it first? Find out the pros and cons?? I just find it amazing how many people take things for face value. What is it in their teachings, that sway so many? This is basic research 101, kinda like doing a book report. If the WT claims the Cross, Trinity, giving blood, etc. is pagan, then go research it in the library, and see if what they say is true-I found that it is not. Thank you all, for any input.

Regards,

Suprashy

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

suprashy

Billygoat, Pureheart:

I asked this question because it DOES matter. JW's believe He died on a stake, and that the cross is a symbol of paganism, which the Christians (such as myself) have adopted. They are bad mouthing me without any evidence to back it up, and they are spreading it around the world by the millions. How can one say "it does not matter"??

Thanks to the people that gave me answers (either for or against), I was able to look up particular websites, go to bookstores, and find the historical evidence, and literature, about how criminals were crucified in Christ's day. aChristian responded with great historical writings-thank you. Idaho, thanks for www.christidan.edu, where archaelogists have found the remains of a "cross-crucified" skeleton. TS, I am always greatful for your wise contributions. Thank you all that responded to the question!

Thanks to this website, I am learning that many religious scholars have written books, done research on Roman history, and have spent time on this issue. Tell me, "does it not matter"? Maybe they were "silly", and should have been "playing lego" too??

If the JW are going to use the Anti-Nicene Fathers as supporting their view that they were non-trinitarian (which is totally false-Justin Martyr, along with others wrote about their beliefs on trinity-which defeats the JW on their "Should u beleive in the Trinity?" pamphlet), but J. Martyr, (and other fathers), also believed He died on the cross. By them using the Anti-Nicene Fathers' writings, they have opened up a can of worms. I will show these writings to (1), prove the article is false, bec. it is trying to defeat the spirit of the writings, by carefully selecting what to quote, and (2), these very same writers, whom the WT mentions, believe the cross was used. This is powerful, powerful evidence to sit down, and discuss when a JW comes knocking on my door telling me the cross is not from the Bible at all. Once again, I ask "does it not matter"??

I have the fathers' writings (which they give credit to), I have historical findings, and every Bible dictionary I have researched for the past few days (not many), show the meaning of the "stauros" to be primarily stake, but can also mean cross. The JW stop short by saying it simply means stake. (Naturally, bec. then otherwise, they could not say the cross is pagan, so they leave the "cross" definition out).

This is why I (somebody totally new, and uneducated in this field), and others, AND many other scholars from the past, present, and future, will address this issue. If I just played lego, instead of do research, I would not have the information I am now armed with, to debate with a JW.

What is sad, though, is that being a religious discussion website, somebody had to post a "who cares" attitude response. I clearly labled my thread, if one does not like it, why spend the energy and time to post a response like "Who cares"?? What is it to the individual? I'm not bothering him/her. If the title of the thread is uninteresting, move on, that's all, why insult???

Once again, thanks all. The more I read the WT articles, the more I research what they say, and sadly, the more untrue their articles become.

Regards,

Suprashy

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

suprashy

Hi again people!

Sorry, I wrote "Trevor, Scott, and all who have helped me:"

I meant, Trevor, Saint, and all who have helped me!

Sorry about that!

Regards,

Suprashy

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

suprashy

Trevor, Scott, and all who have helped me:

Thank you as usual! I'm glad to be here. In fact, talking with a JW is a learning experience. It made me study my Bible even more and do research. As I read through the links (Trevor and others have sent me), my faith becomes even more stronger. What's beautiful, is that we have historical evidence, archaelogical findings, literature, etc.. that prove my beliefs too, and not just publications written by the church to support their viewpoints. Thanks!

Regards,

Suprashy

26

Cross or Torture Stake?

by suprashy in

hi folks!.

do we have any non-biblical evidence that would show how criminals were executed during jesus' day?

i beleive the cross was used for our saviour.

suprashy

Logical,

u say to me "Who cares what he died on"..."you need to get your priorities sorted out".

Hmmm.. what is this forum all about? Its about religious matter.

The JW say the cross is a pagan belief, and that many Christians, (including myself), have deviated from the "true killing instrument" the torture stake, and have adopted the cross.

Is this not a serious accusation that needs to be discussed, and rebutted? From the many above helpful posts, evidence is pointing towards our Saviour having died on a cross. This evidence, when showed to a JW will defend my cross belief, and will help in revealing what the truth really is.

Is this not a high priority issue?? Finding the truth about the cross or torture stake? Clearly, if evidence points to one or the other, then believers of that view, will have to re-think their situation, or at the very least will not have a counter argument.

Your response said nothing positive or negative to help the issue. Kindly refrain from useless posts such as this in the future. Thank you, "Logical"...

Suprashy

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

suprashy

Trevor, Saint,

Well, I sat with a member (non-baptised) last night, and we discussed certain issues. I mentioned both say they are the "First and Last," so why would Jesus claim the same title as God, if he is inferior to God?

-"That does not make them equal, bec. I believe that they are not. He probably means firstborn", was the answer I got. (Trevor, unfortunately, I did not read your post re: "firstborn", otherwise I could have rebutted her), but after hearing that response, I immeadiately began to reason that there is no way she is going to even agree with me from a logical perspective-it is sad. Anyone can read that if both make the same claim, then if not the same, at least a level of equality exists.

I mentioned Isaiah 9:6 "....son is born...eternal father", but her response was Jesus is the father of us, and not God.

So we went back and forth, but she did concede I do make good arguments for my beliefs-WOW!!

Then, I mentioned the UN affair.

I had printed many articles from this website, and as she read them, she immeadiately said "Apostates, the first thing you should do is ask them why are they no longer JW's". This is a fair statement. I do believe I had asked one person here, and the response was "for 30 yrs. I had seen the lies and deception". My mistake was I did not mention this. (I have had this in my mind, it is common sense, I should have asked this earlier).

So now, I ask many of you, bec. I feel the best way to learn about an organization, is to hear from their representatives, but also what better way to learn than from hearing it from an ex member? After hearing both sides, I can make my own decision.

For the ex JW's here:

(1)Why are you no longer part of the JW?

(2)Do you believe in "standard" Christian beliefs? (Cross, Trinity)?

(3)If yes to above, what made you change your beliefs?

This is my mistake, I should have asked this first. I always thought JW's are so close, unless the person really did something bad, (adultery, killing, drugs), they would not leave the JW, (or be asked to leave).

I am in a position where I have something many people do not. (I think bec. I need to question every point, that is what lead me to this website, by doing a search for JW's). I now have two viewpoints about the JW. This is the best way for a person to learn. If the organization is just, and correct, then what I learn will refute the oppostion towards it. However, I can say that my Bible (KJV), supports my "standard" Christian belief, but to hear how it works on the inside is something that I can use when they talk to me. Even now, I say to her, "if you can prove me wrong in my Bible, I will listen to what you have to say, but prove me wrong first." I don't think they can, there are too many verses that show Jesus cannot be inferior to God.

Opinions will be opinions. Naturally, if one is an ex-member of an org., they may have biased views against it. The UN affair is a matter of FACT.

I presented to her the letter, and said "for some time now, the UN has been regarded as the beast by the JW. A letter has emerged showing affiliations with the UN. Granted, if you need to join them to do your work, ok I'll give that to you, but personally, I would not join the beast for anything. However, recent articles have shown a pro-UN viewpoint. How can the JW have a pro-beast viewpoint?"

"Well, I'm sure we had to join them for our work reasons, in order to accomplish certain goals we have", was the response.

I said "ok, but a form needs to be signed every year by the JW, and in that form are certain guidelines which include the NGO must 'support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;' how can you respect the beast? So we've gone from beast to pro-beast. This bothers me."

She will look into the matter and I look forward to her rebuttal. As I think of it, back in the 50's, 60's JW members probably died believing the UN was the beast. Today, the JW's are reading the same publications promoting the beast.

I understand now, that they have disassociated themselves from the UN, but history cannot be changed, we have 2 opposing views, from the same organization.

Another subject was Christy Harvey's rebuttal to "Should you Believe in the Trinity"? http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.htm (Thank you Trevor).

Christy does an excellent job of quoting the Anti-Nicene Fathers' writings. The JW article says these fathers did not support the Trinity. Christy claims they did support the Trinity, and quotes their writings which CLEARLY states their pro-Trinity view. Fortunately, Christy provides references to the exact page. My goal now, is to find these articles, sit down with my JW friend, and read them together. One of us will be proven wrong. I can't wait to get my hands on these writings!

Does anyone have in their posession these articles? (If so, scanned pics. would be GREATLY appreciated). Otherwise, does anyone know if they are easily attained? I work close to a library & bookstore, so I can try to find them there, plus there is the internet.

I notice this website is called "jehovas-witness.com/forum". This is a wonderful website, where both views can be discussed, and the truth become known. Are there any active JW's here? Are any reading this? How about a response?

As always, I thank you for your help!

Regards,

Suprashy

14

For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott in

suprashy,.

you might be thinking of rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...".

and the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

suprashy

Thanks Saint!

Unfortunatley, in Col 1:15, I can see the JW saying "firstborn" means Jesus was born, God was not.

Hebrews 1 can be used by the JW to support their belief, of the two being different. The JW are very good at what they know-I give that to them.

I shall use your recommended John 1:3,4.

Please send me any more verses you have concerning the doctrine of Jesus=God, and even more difficult (for me), the Trinity.

Hey, u mentioned u don't believe much of the Bible, why? (if that's too personal, sorry, but you did mention it). I am curious, have you found certain verses which have caused you to disbelieve? Thanks again for your help!

Regards,

Suprashy