Posts by Duran

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

I don't know why you feel the need to keep saying 'catholic this' and 'JW that'. I am not a JW; my view is based on what I show in the Scriptures I cite. And I could give a rat ass if you are catholic, you are on this forum speaking not your church, so speak based on what you believe/think not what the CC believes/thinks.

You have the same foolishness as JWs in that you just regurgitate what others teach/say with no real understanding of it at all, right or wrong. You fail to reason for yourself. Everything you respond back with is just pure nonsense.

[Hymenaeus and Philetus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.]

[However, brothers, concerning the presence/coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him/first resurrection, we ask you 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.]

[8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.]

[25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.]

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.]

You can save your breathe/fingers from replying about your cc taught spiritual resurrections as it does not matter in this regard to what resurrection I am speaking of here.

Clearly in Paul's day the resurrection Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying occurred already, did not. Because of Paul being aware of that and knowing that that resurrection occurs when Jesus comes, Paul puts out a warning/gives insight, so no one is misled into believing Jesus has come and the resurrection occurred.

His warning is that any talk about Jesus coming and the resurrection/being gathered together is nonsense and don't believe it because he will not come until first the MOL comes first.

This MOL is the same as the 8th king. This is clear because the MOL and the 8th king/beast both are done away with when Jesus comes. The MOL is said to be in God's temple and the 8th king is said to be in God's holy place which is the same place. Also, some of the ones that rule as kings are said to have refused the MOTB. This shows that these two entities are one in the same as it is on hand ruling over/causing suffering and persecution upon God's people who are refusing to support it.

It is after that period that God's people will now receive relief from the tribulation, they were suffering under the 8th king/MOL rule. It is a result of Jesus coming that they get that relief which he can now do because the MOL came first as Paul said would have to happen. Now with Jesus' arrival, the first resurrection/gathering the chosen ones occurred. That is when he is glorified in connection with them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,8-12

Rev 13:5,7,10,11-17;19:20,21;20:4,6

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

[Hymenaeus and Philetus are among them. 18 These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some.]

It is clear that back in Paul's day 'the resurrection' had not occurred yet. That resurrection is what is called the 'first' and it occurs on what is said to be the 'last day', which corresponds with Jesus' second coming.

That first resurrection (or earlier one) has to do with those chosen who will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years. This resurrection is what Paul was trying to achieve. This resurrection cannot happen until after the 42-month rule of the 8th king in which time the MOTB, etc. occurs. We know this because some of the chosen are those that did not take the mark/worship the beast which means they have to be living during that time under the rule of the 8th king refusing him and as a result being killed. Then the first resurrection takes place when Jesus comes on the last day and the 8th king/beast is thrown into the fiery lake and Satan in the abyss.

That last day begins the kingdom rule of the 1,000 years. It is the last day of Satan's rule and the first day of the kingdom rule. This is why all chosen will have to be resurrected first in order to be with Jesus at the start of the 1,000 years.

In addition to those chosen ones and Jesus, the others that will be on hand at the beginning of the 1,000 years will be those of the GC that lived through the GT/8th king rule refusing him. All that support him were killed off when he was thrown into the fiery lake.

1. WW3/horsemen

2. GT/8th king rule

3. Sun, moon, stars event, Jesus comes/last day/first resurrection of chosen/kingdom rule begins/beast and its followers killed/GC lives on

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

Jesus’ teaching on the afterlife does not indicate that righteous souls must “sleep” until the resurrection.

Yes, it does indicate that. Those who die are sleeping in death until they are resurrected.

[ 2 And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt.] cf. [11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep.]

There speaking about 'sleep' is referring to death and 'wake up' is referring to being resurrected.

In the following when talking about 'rest' it is referring to death. (Keep in mind these are visions shown to John, this did not actually happen.) The souls are told to 'rest a little while longer', indicating that they have been 'resting'. This means they were asleep/dead (having been killed) and will remain dead until AFTER the others that make up the full number have been killed too.

These others are killed by the 8th king which is still future. Then after the 42-month rule of the 8th king when all of these have been killed is when the ones that had been resting and the ones recently killed by the 8th king will then be resurrected together. That is the 'first resurrection' and what is considered the 'last day'. This 'last day' corresponds with Jesus' second coming after the GT/8th king rule.

[9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.]

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 This is the first resurrection.]

Regarding your question on the “mystery” of Christ’s return, the Catholic Church maintains that while some signs are given, the timing remains unknown

Of course, the timing is unknow at this point but the whole reason for being given signs/events to watch out for is so when they occur you will know that he is near to coming. His time for coming cannot be any time until after the GT/8th king 42 months rule. There is no mystery there.

Mark 13:28,29;Luke 21:28;2 Thessalonians 1:7,10

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

Yes, there is scriptural support in the New Testament indicating that human souls are in heaven.

If you believe that those Scriptures indicate that there are indeed humans that have died but are now currently in heaven, answer me this:

[ 39 This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose none out of all those whom he has given me, but that I should resurrect them on the last day.]

Who are those/them referring to? Why are they in need to be resurrected, why didn't they go to heaven immediately upon their death? When is the last day?

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 This is the first resurrection.]

There it states that those that had been executed are resurrected along with those that were killed/died refusing the beast.

The beast/8th king has not begun ruling yet, so the MOTB, etc. is still future. At this point none of those could have even been killed/died refusing the beast/8th king in need to be resurrected. So, the first resurrection as not occurred yet which means those executed have not been resurrected yet.

The question is, why do any of them need to be resurrected, why don't they go straight to heaven?

And since this 'first resurrection' has not occurred yet, doesn't that mean the 'last day' has not come yet?

[ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first]

That shows that the dead in union with Jesus will be resurrected at his second coming. Why do they have to be resurrected then, why aren't they already in heaven when they died?

And doesn't this mean that Jesus' 'second coming' is the 'last day'/'first resurrection'?

Catholic teaching recognizes certain signs that are expected to precede the final coming of Christ, though the exact sequence and timing remain a mystery.

What is the mystery, doesn't it clearly state that Jesus will come AFTER the GT/8th king 42-month rule?

[ 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

[31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.]

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

Those in a state of perfect grace and friendship with God enter heaven immediately,

Can you cite ANY Scriptures to support that there are already persons in heaven now that were humans here on earth?

A living believer is awaiting the Second Coming of Christ

Is there ANYTHING that has to happen prophecy wise before Jesus is said to come?

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

@aqwsed

Okay, your right, Jesus is everything you believe he is. All non-believing trinitarians are wrong.

What happens to a trinitarian that died yesterday?

What happens to a non-trinitarian that died yesterday?

Today, what is a living trinitarian (YOU) waiting to take place next in regard to Bible prophecy?

When do YOU believe that Jesus (God) will return according to Bible prophecy?

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

You emphasized that all beings in heaven are spirit beings, not implying they are of the same divinity or status as God.

Bees are bees! In a hive there is a queen bee and worker bees. The queen has a status, and all the worker bees have a status relative to the queen and each other, but regardless of status they are all bees.

God has his status like the queen bee does, and like the worker bees, all of God's heavenly sons have their status relative to God and to each other, but regardless of status they are all spirit beings.

[24 God is a Spirit,]

[48 ...like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.]

[ 14 Are they not all spirits...]

Hebrews 1:3-4, for example, explains that Jesus is the “exact representation of God’s being,”

exact - precise - marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail

representation - the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone

[ 49 For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.]

He has the power to redeem humanity and the authority to judge.

Jehovah gave him that power and authority.

[ 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice. 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.]

[18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.]

[ 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.]

[3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.]

You stated that after His 40-day period on earth post-resurrection, Jesus returned to heaven “as a spirit.” However, the biblical witness in passages like Acts 1:9-11 and Luke 24:39-43 highlights that Jesus ascended in His glorified, physical body, which is now eternal and imperishable.

LOL! In those passages, YES, they describe a physical body. I never claimed other. Just as Lazaras was resurrected with his same body he died with; Jesus was resurrected with his same body that was on the stake.

As far as returning to heaven as a spirit on the 40th day, they saw him in his physical human body until the clouds blocked their view. From that point on he would have become a spirit being again. When he returns it says it will be in the same manner as they saw him leaving, meaning appearing from out of the clouds in a physical body again. His body at that point will a different one/a new one just as those that will be resurrected will have different/new ones.

The two angels that were with Lot are spirit beings from heaven, yet when on earth they appeared to Lot in physical bodies, do you think those two angels are back in heaven now with those same physical bodies or were the bodies discarded with, and they returned to being spirit beings...

Luke 24:39-43;Acts 1:9-11;Mark 13:24-26;Genesis 19:1-3

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

Once again being the fool that you are it is no surprise that you can't resist responding with your nonsense claims.

While it's true that God is spirit (John 4:24), this statement does not imply that all spiritual beings are of the same divine essence or status as God. Angels are created beings, not divine in the same way as God.

Nothing I wrote was implying about 'spirt beings' being the same in divinity or status. My only emphasis was that all beings in heaven are spirits.

The term “firstborn” (e.g., Colossians 1:15) in Scripture does not imply that Jesus was created.

Nothing I wrote implied that Jesus was created or not.

The Bible reveals that, though Jesus took on human flesh (Philippians 2:6-8), He did not lose His divinity or revert back to a purely “spiritual” form after the resurrection.
As mentioned, Jesus did not revert to being solely a spirit after His resurrection. His ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11) was in His glorified body. The angel’s statement to the apostles—“This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go”—emphasizes that He will return visibly and bodily, not merely as an invisible spirit.

Learn to understand what you read. I never said upon when he was resurrected that he returned to being a spirit, I said 40 days AFTER he was resurrected as a human, he returned to heaven as a spirit again. And I never said that he comes back invisible. I said he came to earth as a human the first time when born to Mary and will come again a second time after the GT. I cited Scriptures including what you show there in Acts that show he will be seen when he comes again.

You assert that it doesn’t matter whether “Jesus God” or “Jesus, son of God” returns, as long as the GT happens.

Again, you have no understanding whatsoever. My point was being that Jesus is said to come AFTER the GT then what matters now is the events (WW3) take place to bring on the GT (42-month 8th king) so that he can come AFTER such time. If the GT never comes, it does not matter what version Jesus is, because neither version will ever come.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

In your response, the bolded sections seem intended to reinforce an argument that Jesus is not divine or equal with God by emphasizing distinctions between the Father and the Son. The comments appear to suggest that Jesus’ role as the “last Adam” and “Son of God” should not imply divinity but rather align him with humanity. Furthermore, references to Philippians 2:6 in the New World Translation attempt to argue that Jesus does not claim equality with God.

You just keep showing yourself to be a rambling fool. I did not make any commentary there about divinity or equality in regard to Jehovah and Jesus. My focus is the bolden areas, not necessary the context. So, the rambling you keep doing is pointless and has nothing to do with what is shown in the bolden.

To start it says that God is a spirit. (That is God's form, a spirit being.) This is the foundation, 'God' is a spirit being.

God created other spirit beings. Those spirit beings are said to be God's spirit sons. God and his spirit sons are heavenly.

God also created a man (Adam) on earth from dust. Adam is said to be God's human son. (God created Eve as well, a woman who is God's human daughter.)

All persons that come from Adam and Eve are humans on earth. All in heaven including God himself are spirit beings.1 Corinthians 15:45,48

God's firstborn/begotten son Jesus, a spirit being in heaven came to earth and took on a human form by being born from Mary. (That coming to earth then as a human is considered his first time.)

After 40 days from his resurrection as a human he returned to heaven as a spirit being again.

After the future GT, Jesus is said to come to earth again which will be his second coming.

1 Peter 3:18,19;Acts 1:3,9-11;Hebrews 1:6;9:28;Mark 13:24-26

Everything I said here is accurate and should be in agreement with trinity believes and those who do not believe the trinity.

There is no reason here to say, 'yeah it is accurate, but Jesus is not God' or 'yeah it is accurate, but Jesus is God'.

All that matters at this point is that events happen that bring about the GT, so that Jesus can come after. I don't care if Jesus God shows up or Jesus, son of God shows up. If the Bible's version of the GT never happens then like the atheist believe now, the Bible is just a bunch of BS.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

~~While~~ God created all spiritual beings ~~through Jesus (Colossians 1:16), orthodox Christianity does not view Jesus as a “first created spirit son.”~~

~~Thus, while~~ Adam is the "first human son" in a created sense, ~~Jesus is uniquely the eternal Son of God who becomes incarnate to redeem humanity, not just another created being.~~

Jesus as the "last Adam" ~~is essential because, unlike the first Adam, Jesus brings life and reconciliation through His death and resurrection.~~

[38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.]

[1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the son of God]

[ 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.]

[24 God is a Spirit,]

[6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah]

[ 14 Are they not all spirits for holy service,]

[ 5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.]

[ 18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison,]

[ 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth]

[28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin, and he will be seen by those earnestly looking for him for their salvation.]

TBC...