Posts by Duran

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

WT teaching that the “modern fulfillment” of this fleeing to the mountains was Fleeing ,to, taking refuge in God’s Kingdom - the Mountain of Jehovah

[82 WT- What are these symbolic mountains today? They are the divinely provided place of refuge, Jehovah’s provision for protecting his people on earth through the “great tribulation” described at Revelation 7:1, 14. They are identified with Jehovah’s theocratic organization, which is represented on earth today in the true Christian congregation.]

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The WTS/GB have no clue in regard to 'fleeing to the mountains'. That part of the prophesy serves no purpose and can't be in the future.

In the past it saved the lives of those that fled. They were out when Rome came in.

For the future, the GB claim the GT starts when 8th king, and nations turn on BTG. They say when that happens, that because JWs are not part of BTG, then that means JWs/WTS are not affected at first.

Okay, let's say that is the case. Well, at that point no such fleeing will be needed yet.

Moving on, then they say after BTG had been turned on and the 8th king and nations see JWs carrying on, then they will turn on them.

Okay, let's say that is the case. Well, there still is no need and nowhere to flee to at that point. If you are already a JW at that time (in the right mountain) carrying on to the point you now get turned on by the 8th king, how/where could any such fleeing occur?

Also, they state that at that time all WTS property will be taken away. So again, how do you flee in the future and to where do you go?

The reality is according to the Scriptures (true or not, it's what is written), is when the 8th king comes to power (due to the nations given their power), this will be the point when everything said in regard to the MOTB, etc. will take place.

All people, including JWs will be faced to support or reject the 8th king. If one rejects the 8th king, they will find themselves unable to buy and sell and end up being either killed or in captivity. And many even dying in captivity. This is why it is limited/cut short/given an appointed time of 42 months. That period is what the GT is. It comes upon on those rejecting the 8th king.

Those that support the 8th king will be under his authority but will be surviving/thriving based on their support of.

After that allowed time, the tables turn, and Jesus comes. He does away with the 8th king and all that supported him. He (Jesus) resurrects (first) the chosen ones that will rule with him that the 8th king killed. The surviving ones that rejected the 8th king are the GC that come out of the GT.

Satan is abyssed, and then at some point the resurrecting begins in whatever amount and frequency it will occur. These once resurrected join with the GC and live under the kingdom rule of Jesus and his chosen to rule with him.

Fairy tale? Maybe!

Dudes trippin, writing stuff down for future idiots to argue about? Maybe!

But that is what is said.

If it is true, what I will find entertaining, is when there are JWs that reject the MOTB/8th king, and they find themselves in captivity with others that outnumber them and are from all other religions. That's when they will find out that they were no more the true region than any other. If they find themselves being part of the GC at the end, it won't be because they were a JW before that point. It will be because they rejected the 8th king. That will be the case for all in there. (In fact, JWs are in a bad position and most of them are likely to take the MOTB/support the 8th king, because their GB do not warn them about this being the future situation being faced. They do say the UN/8th king is the DT, so they may at some point soon or at the last minute before the 'last hour' begins, they might change to warning about this. But they will never admit to learning about this from reading so-called apostate's sites like this one. LOL! Actually, the WTS/GB already know they are not the only one true religion and that it is really all religions that are in the same boat.)

The field is the world, the field is not one religion today. Wheatlike people are all over the world now as well as weedlike people. People can claim whatever they want now about their beliefs, but if they support the 8th king when that time comes, their claims meant nothing, they end up dead, proving not to be wheat.

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

No, this is where we differ. IMO this has happened already.

If you think this already happen, then whom/when is the entity in the past that received 42 months to have authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation and was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them?

You can make that choice even now.

That is a ridiculous statement to make based on considering those Scriptures, which you obviously aren't. Is anyone currently or ever in the past having to choose between taking the MOTB/worshipping the beast or not?

The Scriptures show that there is a precise point in time that due to the earth beast/false prophet, that the time will come to have to take the mark, etc. That is the choice that all will have to face and will judge who really are God's people or not. When do you say that time takes place? Rev

Yes, I believe this to take place after the tribulation.

(This goes along with what was just asked above.)

Okay, so if takes place after the tribulation, and according to Rev 20:4 those that will rule with Jesus it is said that they 'had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand', where in Rev does it show the timing of when/how they were being forced to worship/take the MOTB,etc....

When does this period of the MOTB occur so then after, this can be said, based on the choice one made during that MOTB period?

9

1 Thessalonians 5:3....Prophecy ?

by HereIam60 in

i've always had difficulty understanding how watch tower interprets 1 thessalonians 5:3 as prophetic of a future event - that the nations will unite in a (false) cry that they have achieved 'peace and security' which will signal the start of the great tribulation.

whenever i've read that passage i got the sense that it is simply stating a general principle... that when people are complacent and off-guard, thinking everything is o.k., peaceful and secure then sudden unexpected events hit them harder and they don't know what to do.

when i was first coming in (1980s) i well recall the "true peace and security" book that made a big deal about the un having declared 1986 'the international year of peace'.

Duran

[7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sodʹom and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake. 9 And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not allow their corpses to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and celebrate, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.]

[3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.]

[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

Who is perfoming the signs, beast from the earth or the sea beast?

Are you seriously asking that? I clearly addressed that. According to Rev here It is the earth beast/false prophet that performs the signs in front/insight of the sea beast.

Then according to Rev here the sea beast and the earth beast/false prophet gets thrown into the fiery lake.

Is there a reason why you are stuck on Revelation only?

I am not stuck there. I could gladly show the same by referring to the KOTN, MOL, small horn, KFIC, the Northerner, etc.

You are the reason why it's necessary to focus on Rev right now, because you speak about the 8th king/scarlet beast and claim the sea beast is not the same and apparently don't think that the 42 months the sea beast is given is the GT/judgment/MOTB time.

You should be able to show everything you claim just by using Rev and then you can show how others correspond with what you have shown in Rev.

If you are trying to shy away from Rev, it is because you can't use it to back up what you claim.

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands" (Rev. 7:9 ESV)

You cite that in regard to my question:

[What Scriptures can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?]

Your reply was fine, but it lacks the context and that is that the great multitude, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, come out of the GT.

So, the question here is, what/where in Rev is the GT that they come out of?

Do you agree that the GT period that they come out of is Rev 13:5,7,10?

And that during that time is when the choice has to be made to either worship God or the beast? (Rev 14:6,7,9-12)

Then after that period the following takes place?

Rev 19:19-21;20:4;7:9,13,14

Why do you feel the urge to conclude your scriptural thoughts with a music video?

LOL! Because 'I love music' and the way my mind/personality works, is when I hear or read certain things, I automictically hear a song in my head that I am reminded of. Writing/reading 'fiery lake', I heard Ian singing 'FIRE"! I post it at times just for the sake of adding something else to the replies, because I know that many here get over seeing fools like us go back and forth.

The O'Jays - I Love Music (Official Soul Train Video)

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

Hope you will answer the above 3 questions.

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Just want to add this here because I didn't have time to edit earlier...

By disappearing, it would be absorbed by the two new beasts, i.e., beast from the earth and beast from the abyss. I know it disappeared because Jesus deals with only two (not three) beasts at Armageddon.

Yes, you are correct, Jesus deals with only two then, not three. Which two?

It is the earth and sea beast, not the earth and scarlet beast.

[13 And it stood still on the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names.3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, ]

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According to below, it is the 'beast' that the earth beast (false prophet) performed signs in front of is who gets thrown into the fiery lake with the earth beast (false prophet). According to the above, the earth beast (false prophet) has the sea beast in its sight and performs signs in front of it.

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[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

The Cult - Fire Woman HD

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

It appears you don't know what you believe/think/are saying.

You said this to me:

I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period.

God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king.

I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed

To start, it is clear that I view the scarlet beast to be the 8th king, at the point the kings give their authority to it, which happens after it comes out of the abyss.

Likewise, the sea beast I view to be the 8th king, at the point it is given authority for 42 months, which happens after it is healed.

I think they are one in the same, just explained from two different ways, and details have to be added together to get full picture.

That said, let's keep in mind what you said in the quotes above and add that you say the image that the earth beast makes is the scarlet beast which is the 8th king.

Okay, let's 'disappear' the sea beast and just focus on your version of the 8th king.

You said:

This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss). This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20).

So, you say your scarlet beast/8th king is who along with the earth beast/false prophet is thrown into the fiery lake.

[20 And the [scarlet] wild beast [8th king] was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

Let's now go back to your quotes above:

God's people will indeed be persecuted by the 8th king

What Scriptures in Rev can you cite to show that your scarlet/8th king will persecute God's people?

I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against. The latter will receive an adverse judgment. They will be destroyed

What Scriptures in Rev can you cite that will bring about these two groups?

What Scriptures in Rev can you cite that shows the outcome for those that are for God?

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

The rest is your mental construct of events.

LOL!

Afterwards the sea beast disappears

So, you believe that after the sea beast gets healed from is deathlike state and is then given 42 months to have authority over all people, it just disappears?

The beast receiving the death-stroke is = to the time as the beast being in the abyss. It is the time that the beast 'is not'. It's due to the beast being healed from its death like state (in both cases) that people are said to be amazed, etc.. and the names of those are not written in the book of life. How likely is it that this is happening with two different beasts?

and an image is erected in its honor by beast from the earth (13:14). Beast from the earth is also allowed to give breath to the image, so the image becomes a beast in its own right (13:15). This new beast is called the scarlet-colored wild beast (beast from the abyss).

You claim the image of the sea beast made by the earth beast is the scarlet beast (newly made image of sea beast). So how is this newly made image beast from the abyss, when/how did it go in after being created?

Also, wasn't the scarlet beast already on scene back in John's time as Rome, the 'one is'?

[ 3 And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]

This is the beast that Jesus disposes of, alongside the false prophet (19:20)

Revelation 17:13,14;13:5;19:19,20

That is correct, that is how that beast (scarlet beast as the 8th king) goes off into destruction. But that is also how the sea beast goes out. It never just disappeared after the 42 months. The sea beast is who is mentioned with the false prophet (earth beast). They are the 'both' that get thrown into the fiery lake. The image never replaces the sea beast, the image is in addition too.

[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.]

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,]

[19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

[ 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.]

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

Definitely not the same beast

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make based on what I showed.

If you follow backward what it says about the sea beast, from the timing of when and how it is thrown into the fiery lake, and those who are killed along with it at that time, you see that it comes to its end when Jesus comes (Armageddon). That means the 42-month authority given it, which during such time all people on earth have to either support it/take the MOTB or reject it/refuse the MOTB, this period would precede Jesus' coming, leading right into it.

Given what authority is given to this sea beast during that time, and the judgment that is giving to those that take the MOTB (death) and those that refuse it (life as part of the GC or ruling with Jesus),

tell me what role does the 8th king play???

Is 8th king's time before the sea beast gets his 42 months or is it concurrent with???

How/when does the 8th king come to his end???

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Sea beast

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

[11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth,... 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.]

[19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

I'm looking for a scripture connecting the 8th king to a judgment period. Also you confuse the 8th king, "the beast that was and is not," i.e., beast from the abyss (17:8, 11) with beast from the sea (13:1, 2).

No there is no confusion about the two because they are one in the same.

Putting the 8th king (beast from abyss) aside for the moment.

The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth (false prophet) come to their end when Jesus comes. Also, at that time, all that took the MOTB, etc come to their end.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>42 months>>>>>>>Jesus comes>>>>>>>

In order for that to take place at that time, logically the 42 months of the sea beast has to take place where people are taking or refusing the MOTB, etc. This is whereby the use of this sea beast, the choice has to be made by all people, which they will be judged by, is to support the beast and reject God or worship God and reject the beast.

If you support the beast (reject God), you will be among those that are killed and left as bird food when Jesus comes. If you reject the beast (worship God) you will undergo GT during that time under the sea beast 42 months, but you will end up part of the GC or one of the ones that rule with Jesus when he comes.

Those 42 months under the sea beast serve as the judgment by God on his house to find who really are his people. Obviously, those who support the sea beast are not God's people and they will receive their judgment of death (being bird food) by Jesus when he comes.

Those that refuse the sea beast, worshipping God instead, these are his people and are judged to receive their reward of life being part of the GC or ruling with Jesus.

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The sea beast 'was' - gets a death-stroke/'is not' - then gets its death-stoke healed - at which point it is given authority for 42 months and those that follow/support the sea beast, their names are not in the book of life. Also, this sea beast and the kings of the earth come against Jesus and are killed by him, etc. (Revelation 13:3,5,8;19:19,20)

>>>sea beast 'was'>>>is not>>healed given authority 42months>>Jesus comes>>>>

Scarlet beast 'was' - goes into the abyss/'is not'- then comes out of the abyss - at which point the kings give their authority to it making it the 8th king and those that follow/support 8th king, their names are not in the book of life. Also, it and the kings come against Jesus and are killed by him, etc. (Revelation 17:8,11-14,17)

>>>scarlet beast 'was'>>>is not>>comes out of abyss given authority>>Jesus comes>>>

Right now, the sea/scarlet beast is in its was/is state as the 7th king. When it receives it death-stroke/goes into the abyss and then gets healed/comes out of the abyss, it will become the 8th king. Then it goes off into destruction/thrown into the fiery lake by Jesus. Revelation 17:11,14;19:19,20

80

Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?

by liam in

may 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.

what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.

now the wt is saying that's not enough.

Duran

And for the life of me I cannot discover the "judgement" of the 8th king. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the scripture you are referring to.

Are you kidding me? Are you clicking on the hyperlinks? I always include Scriptures in whatever I say.

What are you not understanding in regard to a judgment brought on by use of the 8th king?

You say:

I do agree, that eventually there will only be two groups left, those for God and those against.

How/when do you suppose these two groups come about if not by the 8th king?

For me the beasts represent governing entities, same as in Daniel.

What does that have to do with what I have said? I didn't say they were not.