Posts by TD

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

A person has zero prospect of surviving an event they won't live to see. Therefore it would have been impossible to be a "prospective" member of the great crowd in the year 1492, for example, because here we are 500+ years later.

What you're suggesting, if I'm understanding you correctly, is the removal of that chronological element, which would create a third distinct group of Christians who do not actually fall into either of the two categories that JW's believe are described at Revelation 7 & 14.

I can't find anything like that in their literature. They've taken in recent years to describing the earthly hope in equivocal terms, that distract from what they believe Revelation 7 is specifically describing, but sloppy language is not much to base a conclusion on.

The existence of other sheep apart from the great crowd during the Christian era would create a bunch of other doctrinal problems as well, especially since JW's believe that with a few rare exceptions, everyone gets resurrected anyway.

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

I've posed the question on this forum several times:

Prior to COVID-19, JW's were still knocking on people's doors, still offering Bible studies, still inviting people to their Memorial, etc.

They did these things because they believe we're living in a time of judgement, and that Jehovah is fair and that he wants everyone to have a chance and that it is their job as proclaimers of God's kingdom to do so.

Assuming that set of propositions are still true, (?) then the implications are IMO inescapable:

Do Jehovah's Witnesses expect people to believe as they believe on their authority alone or do they expect people to believe as they believe because those beliefs can be scripturally demonstrated?

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe people are judged based on their receptivity to a tangled, incoherent doctrinal mess that they can't even explain themselves, or do they believe the "truth" of the Bible is obvious to any honest person?

When the basic message presented at their Memorial observance starts to fall apart, then so does their most basic claim about themselves and who they are.

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

It still blows me away that doctrines which were dependent on the pre-1995 understanding of a generation were never adjusted.

For example, when the Great Crowd was identified in 1935, it was thought that the Great Tribulation had already started.

When the Great Tribulation was relocated to an unspecified point in the future in 1970, the Great Crowd doctrine was salvaged by tying it to the pre-1995 understanding of a generation.

In other words, since the Great Tribulation would occur within the lifetimes of those people, they had the prospect of surviving it and were therefore "prospective" members of the Great Crowd.

The 1995 (and subsequent) changes yanked the rug out from under that patch, which leaves a gaping hole in their two-class salvific model.

23

Unfaithful spouse

by Worstfear in

my wife and i have been together for 12 years.

married for 6. she was born into the truth, i studied for 2 years before we got married.

we would attend meetings on a weekly basis, go to conventions, and memorial every year.

TD

Do you just "file for divorce the next day", as if you might wake up and get a coffee?

^^^This^^^

She had been planning on leaving for awhile

53

Those members who passed away

by Gorb in

jw
friends

who of those passed away jwd/jwn members, do we think of??.

oompah and the lady from australia, are there more??.

g..

TD

So somebody please tell me that Leolaia and Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho, who were both young enough to be daughters have not passed away...

53

Those members who passed away

by Gorb in

jw
friends

who of those passed away jwd/jwn members, do we think of??.

oompah and the lady from australia, are there more??.

g..

TD

The lady from Australia was Jan Groenveld, I believe (?)

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

TD

Like slim I have been to various churches since I have left the JWs. The thing that intrigues me isn’t so much their beliefs, but the culture that exists with in these religions.

Okay Joe, maybe we're just looking at different parts of the same elephant.

The two groups definitely share some similarities, but they are night and day in other areas which stand out in bass relief as a child, an adolescent and a young adult

The JW belief that this world is doomed; that it's a lost cause; and that everything from community service to simple charity is the equivalent of patching the roof of a condemned house (Their analogy, not mine...) makes them chronic underachievers who do the bare minimum throughout life.

The Mormon belief that intelligent beings progress almost infinitely, eventually attaining the status of a god and that "hell" is simply a retardation of this process fosters an attitude of Wer sich nicht weiterentwickelt, entwickelt sich zurück if you will.

I could flesh this out to the size novel. I could dredge up the old brochure, School and Jehovah's Witnesses or quote what the JW's have to say about overtime, career advancement, and college. I could point out that it has been the Mormons who were the community and civic leaders in the Southwestern U.S. while the JW's comforted themselves by quoting 1 Corinthians 1:27, but anyone who grew up as a JW knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Both groups are about equally odd in my opinion, but I found (through observation and direct experience) the JW worldview to be far more destructive to young people. When we talk about the "success" of a religion (As opposed to a weed or a virus) I believe this is an important consideration.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

TD

Slim,

TD I’m not so sure why you object to numbers of adherents/congregations as measures of success.

I'm not objecting to it as a measure of success, I'm objecting to as the measure of success. (i.e. Larger = More successful)

Like you said above, we can measure success in various ways.

As someone who is intimately familiar with both groups, I object to the footrace and corporate analogies. You can't "race" someone who's not running the same course as you.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

TD

Joe,

Im searching for an explanation as to why watchtower has been so successful, as apposed to their Mormon counterparts

Are you?

You've been posting this stuff for several years now. That's plenty of time to become familiar enough with the two groups to avoid apple and orange comparisons, like equating the LDS General Conference to the JW Memorial, or for that matter, equating numerical growth with "success" which has been your basic premise from day one.

Like I've tried to point out, the free exercise of their faith, including their polygamous marriage customs was more important to the LDS Church than numerical growth. They separated themselves from society completely and their reintegration was slow, painful and even violent at times. (The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened shortly after C.T. Russell, was born, I believe.) The Mormons, as group, continued to be clannish and reclusive, especially in small towns, well into the 20th century.

You can't claim to be looking for an explanation for how the two groups got to where they are today while simultaneously glossing over all that history. --Not unless you're just here to stump for the JW's...

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

TD

Joseph Smiths first vision was in 1820.

Smith was only 14 in early 1820 and with the exception of a few close friends mostly kept that event to himself

Maybe a better comparison, would be the publishing of the BOM in 1830, because this was the first true glimpse that outsiders got into Smith's world

But even that quickly devolves into apples and oranges. Russell's pseudo Adventist message of restitution was more mainstream by an order of magnitude than Smith's claim to having been personally visited by angelic beings including Peter, James and John; having actually spoken to them; having the Aaronic Priesthood conferred upon himself and Cowdery, having translated a set of golden plates that only about ten other people ever allegedly saw, etc., etc. etc.