Posts by TD

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

Slim,

TD I think you’re missing the basic point that “other sheep” who die before the great tribulation were never part of the “great crowd”.

I disagree on both counts.

The people who were asked to stand up at the D.C. convention in 1935 were told point blank that they were the "great multitude." There was zero equivocation on that point because there didn't need to be.

Again, from 1935, until 1970 it was thought that these people had already come out of the "great tribulation in the sense "...that the great multitude come out from Satan's organization and take their stand on the side of Jehovah during the period of time that elapses from stopping the World War until the day of Armageddon, that is to say, during the time that the "days should be shortened", and during which time period this gospel of the kingdom is preached." (The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 246)

These people were considered to be the "great multitude" because the prophecy was considered to be already fulfilled.

In 1970 the "great tribulation" was relocated to an indeterminate point in the future, (cf. The Watchtower January 15 1970 pp. 52, 53) which relegated these people to "prospective members" of the great crowd in the sense that they were "prospective survivors" of Armageddon. (cf. Survival Into A New Earth p. 80)

In other words, even though Revelation 7:9 "...is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations' attack on false religion." (The Watchtower April 15 1995 p. 31)

And again:

"So someone who wanted to be extremely exacting might restrict the term "great crowd" to persons who have survived the tribulation. But is it necessary to be that restrictive? We do not believe so. Obviously, those who will survive had to have been gathered before "the great tribulation" so that they could qualify for survival. Thus we have applied the term "great crowd" to loyal Christians who at this time serve Jehovah God with the prospect of survival and of their being 'guided to fountains of waters of life' on earth" (The Watchtower August 1 1986 p. 31 Emphasis mine)

Your statement above does not really fit into either of these two scenarios and with respect Slim, I think you are off the mark on several other counts as well.

I pointed out to you that Jehovah's Witnesses consider the "other sheep" and "great crowd" to be virtually synonymous during the Christian Era (i.e. "Other sheep" living during the "time of the end" have the prospect of surviving Armageddon) and your response was to repeat back to me what I had already said about the Pre-Christian Era. I understand very well that the latter is a subset of the former but that is wide of the point:

"Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the Apostle John. This was first explained in the aforementioned convention in Washington, D.C. , when Joseph F Rutherford pointed to those with an earthly hope as "the great multitude." (Isaiah's Prophecy II p. 255 emphasis mine)

The two groups are considered to be identical (or nearly so) in the Christian era inasmuch as the "great crowd" was identified during the "time of the end" which was only supposed to last a generation.

Statements like the one above positively abound in JW literature and the farther back you go, the more black and white they become until you get into the Rutherford era and then they're bombastic.

----

I pointed out to you that Jehovah's Witnesses explicitly tied the pre-1995 understanding of a "generation" to the above idea via the assertion that even those living in 1935 would live to see the end. I gave you a very explicit quote to that effect, which you dismissed as unfounded. I'm sorry. Neither you nor I get to decide that. What the JW's taught and when they taught it is a matter of history at this point.

The question now is if the "great crowd" doctrine has been modified to fit the post-1995 understanding of a "generation."

----

I pointed out to you that 1935 is still considered to be the year the "great crowd" was identified and you have responded back (twice) by pointing out that 1935 has been discarded as the end of the heavenly calling. I don't disagree with you, but that is a different issue entirely.

"Since 1935, Jehovah's Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John's vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth." (The Watchtower September 2019)

Jehovah's Witnesses still point to 1935 as a "bright flash of light" and a milestone in their development. The 1935 convention is a matter of history at this point and it would take a huge amount of whitewashing to get rid of it.

----

In your most recent reply, you've pointed out to me that here have always been exceptions to this "rule" and I don't disagree with you. The grandparent I mentioned was one of them.

The exact same observation can be made with equal force to the pre-1995 understanding of a "generation", but the JW's never claimed that everyone who was alive in 1914 would live to see the end. The claim was that on the whole, that generation would survive. Accidents, illness, and other forms of untimely death have always been allowed as exceptions to the "rule."

----

You have asserted that those who die before the "great tribulation" are not a new category and I would agree with you as long as those people are exceptions to the "rule." Once it becomes the rule -- Once it becomes apparent that an entire generation of JW's attains neither of the two hopes that JW's teach the Bible holds out for Christians, then we do have a new category. To deny it at that point, would be denial of reality.

----

For what it's worth, I don't disagree with your other common sense observations and believe the JW's will eventually have to modify the "great crowd" teaching accordingly.

If you believe this is happening or has happened, then please give me some references. I've followed this topic pretty closely for years.

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

Hallo, waton,

sorry, in wt weirdness, Jesus' ransom only applies directly, as a mediator, to the 144 000, not to jws now, the prospective members the great crowd.

As the mediator of the "new covenant," yes, that is what they teach.

The "..washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the lamb" motif does tie directly to the Ransom though.

What the JW's have actually said on this subject doesn't seem to carry a lot of weight anymore, but here is a quote for whatever it's worth:

"Having suffered to the point of death, Jesus was able to provide the sacrifice needed to help others acquire a righteous standing. To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25." (Isaiah's Prophecy II p. 211)

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

Slim,

Like with other conversations I think we might be talking about two different sides of the same coin.

I actually had a grandparent at that convention in 1935, who passed away in the early 1970's of extreme old age. --Very nearly 100

So yeah, I understand the doctrine is broken. I understand that things did not work out in real life the way the way they were predicted to on paper.

So I don't have any argument with your point.

My observation was that I'm blown away that nothing has significantly changed. The most recent article I could find (September 2019) is "dumbed down" quite a bit, but it still states very clearly that the ingathering of the "great crowd" began in 1935 and that this group has the "prospect" of surviving.

The teaching still rest squarely on Revelation 7 which does not describe a generic "earthly hope" JW's have taken to equivocating on that point, but that doesn't change what their own Bible says

Other, more esoteric aspects of the teaching have never been retracted.

-That the heavenly hope was the only Christian hope from Pentecost until 1935.

-That the Ransom only directly applies to the 144,000 and the "great crowd"

I don't share your optimism (?) that the growing number of people who believed their entire lives that they had the prospect of surviving and died of old age is not a problem. Dying of old age is not the hope JW's teach the Bible holds out for Christians.

Why be a JW at all if that is the case?

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

Slim,

There were already people who don't fit into either the great crowd or the 144,000 in Revelation, such as Lazarus and John the Baptist for example

Both of those two gentlemen passed away before Pentecost and what JW's consider to be the formal start of the Christian Era. So like Able, Enoch and Noah, they fall into the broader category of "other sheep"

So I’m not really sure what your objection is.

It's really very simple:

JW's teach that Revelation 7 & 14 describe two hopes for Christians

a. The prospect of ruling with Christ in heaven (i.e. The heavenly hope)

b. The prospect of surviving the Great Tribulation (i.e. The earthly hope)

There is no other option. There is no third group. You either fall into one category or the other.

JW literature has been clear on this from day one.

From 1935 until 1970 they believed the "great tribulation" had already started and that these people had already come out of that tribulation and from 1970 onward, they tied the idea of a human lifespan to the doctrine for the reasons I've already explained:

JW literature has been clear on that point too:

"Other loyal servants of God, too, will be on hand to witness the events of that great day. Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves.....God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.”

So I’m not really sure what your objection is

My original point on this thread was that the "prospect" of surviving the "great tribulation" is dependent upon the pre-1995 understanding of a "generation" and is therefore completely incompatible with the the changes they have made. Especially the overlapping generation nonsense

At this point, I guess I'm objecting to the equivocal use of the term, "other sheep." The term describes everyone throughout the whole of history who JW's believe will live on "paradise earth" including those who lived long before Christ, but as it relates to the Christian Era and the Christian hope, it is virtually synonymous with the term, "great crowd."

Here is a small sampling:

---

"In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9" Revelation - Climax pp 121-122

"At first the position of these other sheep was not well understood, but with the passing of time, things became clearer. In 1932 anointed Christians were encouraged to urge other sheep to share in the preaching work—something many other sheep were already doing. In 1934 other sheep were encouraged to submit to water baptism. In 1935 they were identified with the “great crowd” of Revelation chapter 7." The Watchtower July 1, 1995 p. 15

"Who are marked on the forehead by that “man”? “Other sheep,” ones who have the hope of living eternally on a paradise earth. (John 10:16; Psalm 37:29) In 1935 this group of “other sheep” were discerned to be the “great crowd . . . out of all nations” seen in vision by the apostle John. (Revelation 7:9-14)" The Watchtower January 1, 2000 p. 12

"In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9." The Watchtower May 15, 2001 p. 15 (Reiteration of quote from Revelation book...)

Jesus’ disciples entertain one of two hopes. First, a “little flock” numbering 144,000 has been gathered—anointed Christians of both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds who are “the Israel of God” and have the hope of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom. (Luke 12:32; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 14:1) Second, in the last days, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” have manifested themselves. These have the hope of living forever on a paradise earth. Before the outbreak of the great tribulation, this multitude—whose number is not foreordained—serve alongside the little flock, and both groups form “one flock” under “one shepherd.”—Revelation 7:9, 10; John 10:16. Isaiah's Prophecy II pp 241-242 (2001)

"Those of the other sheep gathered in the time of the end will make up the “great crowd” destined to survive “the great tribulation,” with the prospect of living forever on a paradise earth. The Watchtower February 1 2002 p. 21

"But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end. The Watchtower February 15, 2003 p. 19"

----

The only place in JW literature where you could possibly get the idea that "other sheep" exist apart from the "great crowd" during the Christian Era is a Questions From Readers which makes allowance for accidents, illness and other forms of untimely death. (Which you have pointed out above.0

If any of this has changed and 1935 has been discard, then I'm not seeing it. The most recent treatment of the subject I'm aware of was in a 2019 study article which positively gushes about 1935 and what exciting development this was:

There's even a chart

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

Slim,

A person has zero prospect of surviving an event they won't live to see. Therefore it would have been impossible to be a "prospective" member of the great crowd in the year 1492, for example, because here we are 500+ years later.

What you're suggesting, if I'm understanding you correctly, is the removal of that chronological element, which would create a third distinct group of Christians who do not actually fall into either of the two categories that JW's believe are described at Revelation 7 & 14.

I can't find anything like that in their literature. They've taken in recent years to describing the earthly hope in equivocal terms, that distract from what they believe Revelation 7 is specifically describing, but sloppy language is not much to base a conclusion on.

The existence of other sheep apart from the great crowd during the Christian era would create a bunch of other doctrinal problems as well, especially since JW's believe that with a few rare exceptions, everyone gets resurrected anyway.

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

I've posed the question on this forum several times:

Prior to COVID-19, JW's were still knocking on people's doors, still offering Bible studies, still inviting people to their Memorial, etc.

They did these things because they believe we're living in a time of judgement, and that Jehovah is fair and that he wants everyone to have a chance and that it is their job as proclaimers of God's kingdom to do so.

Assuming that set of propositions are still true, (?) then the implications are IMO inescapable:

Do Jehovah's Witnesses expect people to believe as they believe on their authority alone or do they expect people to believe as they believe because those beliefs can be scripturally demonstrated?

Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe people are judged based on their receptivity to a tangled, incoherent doctrinal mess that they can't even explain themselves, or do they believe the "truth" of the Bible is obvious to any honest person?

When the basic message presented at their Memorial observance starts to fall apart, then so does their most basic claim about themselves and who they are.

122

1995 generation change

by Gorb in

jw
friends

now, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.

it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.

with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.

TD

It still blows me away that doctrines which were dependent on the pre-1995 understanding of a generation were never adjusted.

For example, when the Great Crowd was identified in 1935, it was thought that the Great Tribulation had already started.

When the Great Tribulation was relocated to an unspecified point in the future in 1970, the Great Crowd doctrine was salvaged by tying it to the pre-1995 understanding of a generation.

In other words, since the Great Tribulation would occur within the lifetimes of those people, they had the prospect of surviving it and were therefore "prospective" members of the Great Crowd.

The 1995 (and subsequent) changes yanked the rug out from under that patch, which leaves a gaping hole in their two-class salvific model.

23

Unfaithful spouse

by Worstfear in

my wife and i have been together for 12 years.

married for 6. she was born into the truth, i studied for 2 years before we got married.

we would attend meetings on a weekly basis, go to conventions, and memorial every year.

TD

Do you just "file for divorce the next day", as if you might wake up and get a coffee?

^^^This^^^

She had been planning on leaving for awhile

53

Those members who passed away

by Gorb in

jw
friends

who of those passed away jwd/jwn members, do we think of??.

oompah and the lady from australia, are there more??.

g..

TD

So somebody please tell me that Leolaia and Wake Me Up Before You Jo-Ho, who were both young enough to be daughters have not passed away...

53

Those members who passed away

by Gorb in

jw
friends

who of those passed away jwd/jwn members, do we think of??.

oompah and the lady from australia, are there more??.

g..

TD

The lady from Australia was Jan Groenveld, I believe (?)