Posts by TD

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

LUHE

This was a felony stop. Gutierrez states that to the dispatcher as he exits the vehicle

A temporary vehicle license out of place is not a felony. It's not a misdemeanor either. It's actually a minor civil infraction that usually results in a warning.

Once it became apparent that this was the only thing amiss and the vehicle was not stolen, which was very early on, the justification for the felony stop came to an end and it was time for the officers to change tactics. The Windsor Chief of Police has acknowledged as much himself.

To quibble over whether Nazario was too slow to comply with an unjustified level of force misses the point that the level of force was unjustified.

Brandon Tatum, who is the author of the 33 minute YouTube video at the start of this thread is either misinformed or lying on a number of fronts. He claims it was a traffic stop. It most certainly was not as Gutierrez clearly stated. As a former Tucson police officer, Tatum would have been familiar with the procedure for stopping safely in Arizona, which I've posted on this thread. His righteous indignation that Nazario proceeded for almost another mile in a state with a virtually identical procedure is therefore either disingenuous or ignorant.. His claim that Nazario didn't even slow down is demonstrably false as it's contradicted by the transcript of Crocker's radio communications. The guy's videos are frankly garbage. I've no interest in watching any more of them and am surprised that you do.

It the spirit of your thread though, I agree that it's very easy to criticize and much, much harder to do quality police work. Anyone who can do it and maintain their composure is a much, much better person than I am.

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

LUHE

my comments on #2 and #3 point out the responsibility of the army driver to comply with orders, something he repeatedly refused to do (I'm talking about the clear orders when just one cop is talking)

This is what I saw and heard: (Time stamps are from Gutierrez bodycam)

18:36:16 - Crocker - Unintelligible (Gutierrez is exiting vehicle)

18:36:20 - Crocker to Nazario "Put your hands out the window"

18:36:23 - Crocker to Nazario "Put your hands out the window"

18:36:26 - Crocker to Nazario "Turn the vehicle off and put your hands out the window"

18:36:30 - Gutierrez to Crocker "How many occupants?"

18:36:38 - Crocker to Nazario "Put your hands out the vehicle and turn the vehicle off" [sic]

18:36:46 - Crocker to Nazario "Put your hands out the window"

18:36:52 - Gutierrez to Crocker "Coming around your side"

18:36:53 - Crocker to Nazario "Let's see your hands"

18:36:58 - Crocker to Nazario "How many occupants are in your vehicle?"

18:36:59 - Crocker to Nazario "How many occupants are in your vehicle?"

18:37:00 - Gutierrez levels his pistol and we can now finally see what Nazario's hands are out the window.

I'm going to have to disagree with the description of, "clear orders when just one cop is talking."

Crocker's orders become mixed almost immediately and are dangerously contradictory at about the 20 second point.

The cops shouldn't have made mistakes. They should have issued clear orders. But....

I keep hearing the word, "but" as justification for two officers going even farther down the bad path they've taken but it doesn't work that way. The law doesn't work that way. Law enforcement doesn't work that way.

Honest questions for you LUHE:

Do you understand the type of stop this was? (Gutierrez states it at 18:36:20)

Do you understand that these stops must rest on reasonable suspicion the suspect is a dangerous felon?

And that without that reasonable suspicion, the officers are on the wrong side of the law themselves?

With respect, LUHE, you've picked a horrible example. And we haven't even gotten to the threats of false charges and the ruining Nazaio's career yet.

10

I Care a Lot (2020) One of the worst movies I think I've ever seen

by TD in

my wife and i were intrigued by the trailer, which looked like a humorous, over the top, dark comedy.. the story centers around the unscrupulousness of a female attorney named marla grayson (rosamund pike) who makes her living by preying on old people.

grayson has her victims declared mentally incompetent, locks them away in a care facility she has bought off and then liquidates and pockets their assets as their court appointed guardian.. (spoilers ahead).

ms. grayson humorously makes the mistake of singling out a seemingly helpless retiree name jennifer peterson (dianne wiest) as her next target.. grayson however, quickly discovers that peterson has millions of dollars in diamonds in a safe deposit box and far from being helpless is the mother of roman lunyov, (peter dinklage) a russian mafia figure who is not terribly happy with this turn of events.. up to this point, the movie was great.

TD

The sudden change in direction really ruins the movie for everyone. The character Marla literally does not have a single redeeming characteristic and is nobody even the SJW crowd would want.

Worse, all the wildly improbable plot elements which should have been funny suddenly have to be taken seriously.

There's a scene for example where Marla is chloroformed, has half a bottle of Vodka pumped into her stomach via nasogastric tube, is placed in her car with the throttle jammed wide open and launched down a hill towards a river.

Not only does Marla magically wake up with all her faculties intact, she suddenly has the superhuman strength to knock the back window out of the car and escape without so much as a hangover.

Villains who refuse to die are not uncommon in comedy, (Jaws from James Bond) the supernatural, (Samara & Chucky) or science fiction (The Terminator) but it just doesn't work here.

The audience is left floundering for a plausible explanation, with some even speculating that Marla really didn't survive and everything afterwards is hallucination as she drowns.

10

I Care a Lot (2020) One of the worst movies I think I've ever seen

by TD in

my wife and i were intrigued by the trailer, which looked like a humorous, over the top, dark comedy.. the story centers around the unscrupulousness of a female attorney named marla grayson (rosamund pike) who makes her living by preying on old people.

grayson has her victims declared mentally incompetent, locks them away in a care facility she has bought off and then liquidates and pockets their assets as their court appointed guardian.. (spoilers ahead).

ms. grayson humorously makes the mistake of singling out a seemingly helpless retiree name jennifer peterson (dianne wiest) as her next target.. grayson however, quickly discovers that peterson has millions of dollars in diamonds in a safe deposit box and far from being helpless is the mother of roman lunyov, (peter dinklage) a russian mafia figure who is not terribly happy with this turn of events.. up to this point, the movie was great.

TD

My wife and I were intrigued by the trailer, which looked like a humorous, over the top, dark comedy.

The story centers around the unscrupulousness of a female attorney named Marla Grayson (Rosamund Pike) who makes her living by preying on old people

Grayson has her victims declared mentally incompetent, locks them away in a care facility she has bought off and then liquidates and pockets their assets as their court appointed guardian.

(Spoilers ahead)

Ms. Grayson humorously makes the mistake of singling out a seemingly helpless retiree name Jennifer Peterson (Dianne Wiest) as her next target.

Grayson however, quickly discovers that Peterson has millions of dollars in diamonds in a safe deposit box and far from being helpless is the mother of Roman Lunyov, (Peter Dinklage) a Russian Mafia figure who is not terribly happy with this turn of events.

Up to this point, the movie was great. We have Grayson as the predatory but naive attorney who believes all conflicts are resolved in a court room and Lunyov as the angry bear who executes people for disappointing him. It could have been a very funny movie along the lines of Some Like It Hot, Wise Guys and Mickey Blue Eyes.

Only it wasn't.

It was like the original director quit half-way through and another one took over who had an entirely different vision.

The movie morphs into an empowerment piece for the female LGBTQ community without a vestige of humor or shred of realism and with a female character that was portrayed as thoroughly despicable emerging as the heroine.

Two thumbs down. --Complete waste of time IMHO

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

As far as where you should, or should not pull over, this is how the courts interpret the law in my state:

This is what is taught in officer conducted traffic schools and this is what it states in the driver's license manual itself. Clearly the judgment of the driver is involved too.

Emergency shoulders are a luxury we very often don't have here (Because the freeway system has been under constant construction for the last forty years) and we've had a number of officers accidentally stuck and killed by passing motorists on our freeways as a result. Most officers are therefore appreciative if you show a little common sense.

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

Normally an officer detains you at a traffic stop. This can absolutely lead to an arrest, but there is a substantial legal difference between the two.

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

Also, LUHE, you have asked for my opinion.

I've expressed my concern over the adoption of military tactics by our police many times.

On the battlefield it may be okay to shoot an enemy captive when he startles you with a sneeze, but it's not okay when that person is your neighbor.

Here is a link to an essay by an ex CIA officer and current police officer in Georgia, who probably expresses this concern better than me.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/03/beat-cop-militarized-policing-cia/

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

LUHE

Hang on a sec, doesn't the law state that a displayed vehicle license must be visible at all times? The cops had every right to stop the guy if they couldn't see that license.

If you're talking about the permanent plate, yes, the law states that it must be lit. I'm not sure how it's done in other countries, but when you purchase a vehicle here in the U.S. your temporary vehicle license is a piece of paper taped to the inside of your back window which is not lit at night. There is nothing even the least bit unusual about this. We all see it here on freeways and surface streets every day and when a vehicle is not displaying a permanent plate in the normal place, that is the next logical place to look.

It's been a long time since I lived in Virginia and I don't what the law currently is, but as a general statement from a U.S. citizen, traffic law does not go off into limbo when a police officer turns on his lights. It is up to you as a citizen to pick a safe spot for both you and the officer to stop. Here where I currently live, that means not stopping on freeways or narrow shoulders where stopping is illegal. You proceed at reduced speed with your emergency flashers on until you reach a safe spot, which can easily be a mile or two down the road.

The series of mistakes I listed cascade into each other inasmuch as each one in turn yanks the rug of justification out from under the next one down the line. With that in mind, I'm afraid I'm not following you on #2 and #3

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

LUHE

specifically, what did he do wrong?

Mistakes in order:

#1 Nazario's temporary vehicle license was visible in the lower right hand corner of his rear window even in the body cam video, which wasn't even at a good angle to see it. The police may not have seen it in the dark, but once he pulled into a brightly lit gas station, proper procedure would have been to check for and run that tag.

#2 The imperatives shouted at Nazario were conflicting. He was simultaneously told to keep his hands visible and to get out of the vehicle which would have involved pulling a hand inside the vehicle which would very likely have gottem him shot.

#3 Use of force by police must be justified by the level of threat. A suspect may be noncompliant for a whole spectrum of reasons ranging from impairment/confusion/fear on one end to open hostility on the other. It's one thing if a suspect is surely and combative, but it's quite another if he is holding his hands up and stating that he's afraid. Proper procedure is to make that determination and not needlessly escalate a traffic stop.

None of this is my personal opinion. This is what use of force experts across the country have said after reviewing the recordings, which is why Gutierrez was fired.

----

Was the police stop in the video you posted, in fact, illegal?

No it was not. It's awkward to pull over your boss's boss's boss's boss and not be able to give a good reason for it, but it was not illegal.

Both vehicles in the video (The police cruiser and the white Ford sedan) were owned by the state and running the plates on either one would have returned a null result. The officer may not have realized that at first, but once she identified herself as one of the top law enforcement officials in the state, the reason became crystal clear and the officer going off about the factory tint on her state owned vehicle is pure bullshit.

49

What police have to deal with

by LoveUniHateExams in

so, the actions of cops have come under scrutiny in recent days, what with the trial of derek chauvin and the death of daunte wright.

i certainly hope justice is served in both those cases.. what is easy for people to forget, is just what police officers have to deal with on a regular basis, during their interactions with citizens.. here's a video breaking down one such interaction.. a car owner was driving his car but the tags weren't legally displayed.

cops wanted him to pull over but the driver continued driving for a mile and a half with a police car following with sirens and lights.

TD

Look at what these poor officers had to put up with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVy9rzWKUBY

The smile on Ms. Ayala's face when the officer starts lying is priceless.

On a more series note, LUHE, Governor Northam, Mark Herring, the Attorney General, The Windsor City Council and the Windsor Police Department disagree with your YouTube source.

Joe Gutierrez has been fired for not following procedure.