TD

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Posts by TD

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  47

  JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them

  by Anony Mous in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.

  if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.

  now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.

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  TD

  There was person here years ago that some might remember

  She's a bonafide PhD and this was one of her favorite topics to write about:

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/85223/jude-1-enoch

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/80498/james-4-5-quote-from-lost-apocryphal-scripture

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/68556/tartarus-2-peter-2-4

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/71735/neolithic-early-bronze-relics-stories-about-rephaim

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/68224/enigmatic-mystery-nephilim-rephaim-titans

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/69401/gilgamesh-mentioned-dead-sea-scrolls

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/67655/enochs-sumerian-ancestors
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  But in most respects I don't think like an ancient Jew and that might explain why I am puzzled that Rome and Dema Roma were thought of as being whores by ancient Jews.

  The ancient Jews had horrible attitudes towards women. The portrayal of the misdeeds of a nationality as the activities of an unchaste woman is actually a recurring theme in Judaism. You're familiar with the sexual escapades of Oholah and Oholibah (Samaria and Israel respectively) in Ezekiel?

  Denigrating foreign deities and their visual representations was also common in Judaism and that crosses over into the Bible as well. To me, it's not surprising at all that the two would come together, because it would not be the only example of its type.

  My purpose in posting the image of the coin was only to show that the motifs are echoed in Revelation. She's clearly seated upon the seven hills of Rome (cf. Rev 17:9) with her feet at the edge of the Tiber (cf. 17:15) just as she's described
  

  There is nothing in that depiction to suggest unchastity and I am puzzled that you seem to be looking for clues for it. The viewpoints of the Romans (Who minted the coin) and the Jews (Who hated Rome) are diametrically opposed and you're not going to find evidence of the Jewish viewpoint on a Roman coin.
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Fisherman,
  

  WT methodology is not faulty because WT uses scripture to interpret scripture; that is the algorithm WT uses.

  That's not really true when it comes to Revelation and you know it.

  The distance from Scranton Pennsylvania to Brooklyn New York; Offset Printing Presses; JW History; Bible Student Conventions in the 1920's; Publications released at those conventions; The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society; The Papacy; The Roman Catholic Church; The Protestant Reformation; The United Nations; The Golden Age/Awake! magazines; Blood Transfusion; The Flag Salute; etc., etc., etc. are not discussed in the book of Revelation, or in the Bible itself for that matter.

  This is all part and parcel of the author's own wild allegory
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  DJW,
  

  What is your source for the idea of Rome (including Dema Roma) as being thought of as being a whore by Jews?

  You mean aside from Revelation, its condemnation of the idolatry in Pergamum and its clear allusion to Dea Roma as she's depicted on numerous reliefs and coins? (Sorry, That's meant as humor)

  My comments were drawn from a variety of liberal scholars, including Richard Rubenstein, A. N. Wilson, James Kugel and Robert Eisenman
  

  I wish the engraving of the back side of the coin was clearer. I wonder what it depicts the goddess as holding in her left hand. It looks like she might be holding a sword.

  Dea Roma is conflated/merged with Tyche, Athena and Minerva and as such is often depicted with her right breast bare and either a sword, spear, scepter or scale in her left hand, which are all motifs of justice. On this particular coin, she's holding a scepter
  

  Also, it is hard for me to imagine how someone considered a goddess with military power (by those who worshipped her) would be considered by others as a whore.

  Seriously? You do understand the attitude of ancient Judaism towards pagan idols, right? I'm not trying to be flippant here. As a JW, it would have been drummed into your head.
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Fisherman
  

  Need to solve the crossword puzzle in pencil. You pointed out mistaken wt conclusions but I don’t think the methodology is faulty because it uses only scripture to solve the puzzle.

  By my count, the Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses have produced five separate commentaries on Revelation and none of them has been based solely on scripture. All five are a mish-mash of scripture, doctrinal concepts peculiar to JW's, interpretations of scripture used as a springboard for further interpretation all garnished with a sprinkling of history.

  The author or authors of all five assume that they are the "chosen" in the sense of being either active participants and/or the actual targets of prophecy. (I'm using the term loosely as much of this is wild allegory and not prophecy)

  In retrospect, it comes across as arrogant, but I honestly don't think it was meant that way. It's a faulty methodology leading to faulty conclusions.
  

  Rev is not simply history and instruction. It is about relief from human suffering and ultimate justice.

  I said, "primarily" which is not entirely and certainly not "simply"

  The book was written during a time of heightened persecution as an encouragement to Christians. That context can't simply be tossed to the wind, which is what happens when a modern commentator treats the immediate audience as unimportant.
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Fisherman,

  How does that establish that Rome is the Rev HOB or debunk WT interpretation that it is WEFR?

  The point of the observation is that a faulty methodology yields faulty results. Jehovah's' Witnesses have provided ample proof of that.

  Have you considered the possibility that the value of Revelation today might be primarily historical / instructional rather than a collection of prophecies to, for and about Jehovah's Witnesses themselves?
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Fisherman,

  The idea that the 1600 stadia is the distance from Scranton PA to Brooklyn NY provided you take the Hoboken Ferry (The Finished Mystery 1917) or that the breaking of one of the seven seals was the installation of new printing presses in Brooklyn (Then is Finished the Mystery of God 1969) are two examples of where an egocentric approach to interpretation leads.

  There are many more.
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Perfect example:

  Revelation 17 describes a thoroughly despicable woman via a series of cryptic allusions that don't make a lot of sense on the surface.

  These allusions, however come together on the obverse side of the Vespasian coin, where we see a female figure seated on the seven hills of Rome just as she's described.

  
  

  This was Dea Roma, (The personification of Rome as a goddess) which the Jews absolutely despised. They saw Rome as a greater Babylon and Dea Roma as the symbol of their servitude. The called her the "mother of whores" and scrawled obscene graffiti about her in public places when they could get away with it.

  Everyone at the time would have been familiar with this symbology. And that's why Revelation was copied and circulated because it made sense to the people at the time
  
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  54

  Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

  by Iamallcool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

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  TD

  Revelation was about cryptic references to events that affected early Christians under the Roman empire during the first and early second centuries. Relevance to anything now, or to the future, is exactly zero.

  ^^^This^^^

  It made perfect sense to the people it was written to and for.

  It only made it into the NT by the figurative "skin of its teeth" because the relevance was already fading away
  
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  37

  Biblical Anachronisms in JW Literature

  by neat blue dog in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in a recent post ffghost made a comment about how they're always inserting modern concepts into biblical narratives to make it relatable to jw's organization.

  here are some that come to mind:.

  - the capitalized term "governing body" when referring to the older men in jerusalem (really just another group of christians that paul outspokenly disagreed with and didn't look to for approval).

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  TD

  If your goal is to drive home the message "beards are bad" why draw one on a "good guy"?

  Obviously Judas of the Sicarii (Sorry, couldn't resist )