Posts by PetrW

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Duran

As I wrote to you, I rather decided to start in the 7th trumpet.

The chronological framework I described to you is my working hypothesis ✌️😎 It's not dogma: I turn on my own "new light" quite often 😁

On the death blow: honestly, so far still in exploration. As with other entities, one needs to research the history of Christian tradition, i.e. how and who commented on these passages and when. Compare that with modern interpretations. To parse the text... That's quite time-consuming...

So, so far, I'm thinking that the two witnesses will deal the blow (the Beast will make war with them), but the pouring of the bowl on his throne is also a possibility. But I don't know...

The Abyssos, or prison, is - as I understand it - open from the 1st woe, when the locusts come out of it. Then the horses and finally the beast. I don't think the abyssos caused the wound. But again, I don't want to dismiss it, it's an interesting consideration - especially in the context of Babylon the Great (on the identity of Babylon the Great, later...).

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@ Duran

Good question!

Why will the two witnesses not preach until after the 7th trumpet? I think the answer is in Rev 11:7: they are to preach and the Beast of Abyss will end their preaching. According to Rev. 17:8, the Beast comes out of the abyss and is, I believe, identical to the Beast of Rev. 13:1 (the reason for the identical beast - aside from "cosmetic" differences in description - is that this Beast comes out whole with its heads and also goes whole into the "lake of fire" in Rev. 19:20).

This means that the two witnesses have to preach for 1260 days, and sometimes at the end of their preaching ("they finish preaching" Rev. 11:7) the Beast appears for 42 months, which at the beginning of the reign, destroys the two witnesses.

This is probably obvious to you, but like you, I have addressed the question, don't the 1260 days begin at the time of the 6th trumpet (2nd woe)?

The decision for the 1260 days only beginning at the time of the 7th trumpet, in my opinion, lies in the use of the future tense for the verbs "prophesy" or "trample". Therefore, I have placed the beginning of "prophesying" only in the 7th trumpet.

I explain it another way: in the broader context of the chronology of Revelation as I understand it, if I add up the 1260 days (sermons) and 42 months, I come up with a length of these events of about 7 years. Okay, but what about the preceding period? As has been discussed here, I consider Joseph's dream in Egypt to be "eschatological": Ex 41:49 describes that in the first seven years, the "corn" (= sons of God) was like "sand in the sea" that they stopped counting them. In Ex. 41:50 "before the year of famine began", two sons (=two witnesses) are born to Joseph. Then sets 7 years of famine...

The total time from the hanging of the four (angelic) horsemen to the destruction of the Beast would be about 14 years. Which also corresponds to the requirement, so well known in JWs-theology, that the generation "shall not pass away". According to Matt. 10:21, the father is to deliver the child and the children, his parents, to death. It does not say (though it probably does!) that grandfathers their grandchildren or that grandchildren their grandfathers.

The 14 years or 7 years for the harvest* also suggests the duration of the individual breaking of the seal and trumpet: in the 5th trumpet the torment by the locusts is described (Rev 9:5;10) - it is to last 5 months. I infer from this that it is roughly a total of 6 months for the individual seals and trumpets. If I add these six months together from the first seal to the 7th trumpet, it is the 7 years. Some clue to the "half-year" duration is found, I believe, in the text of Rev. 9:15, where the angel is prepared for the hour, day, month, and year. The event is to take place within a year, not e.g. seven years or 50 years (Jubilee).

* The cleansing and gathering of the last of the harvest (144,000) and the gathering of all others who show the slightest humanity (like the thief on the cross) or just obey(!), like the 276 people who were with Paul in the boat (Acts 27:37), then likewise from the world and from the power of the Beast, all people will be saved. All the saved, including the 144,000, will be as the sand in the sea, these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation... if the end comes anytime soon, then I think billions will survive...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@Duran

These 5 trumpets are said to be blown and events associated with them end before the 3 1/2 years begin. (It is within the 6th trumpet that the 42 months are said to occur.)

***

You've described the problem exactly.

The interesting question is when the event announced in trumpet 6 will begin: for Rev 11:2 uses futurum for "trampling" and that it will last 42 months. And in Rev. 11:3 it is written, again using futurum, that "a (suggestion) will be given" to the two witnesses to prophesy (again futurum) 1260 days. For completeness, I add that the second woe ends in Rev. 11:14, and only then, the 3rd woe occurs, at the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet (see also Paul).

In my opinion, the two witnesses begin preaching shortly after the 7th trumpet sounds, that is when the 1260 days begin to be counted. And parallel to this, according to Rev 12:6, the woman, after the birth of the boy/man (Michael), flees into the wilderness for 1260 days.

So I interpret this passage to mean that the heavenly battle (Rev 12:7) between Michael and the dragon, lasts for those 1260 days, the time when the two symbolic witnesses prophesy on earth. After Satan is cast down to earth (so he persecutes the woman again, and is given "time, times, and half a time." Although this roughly corresponds to the length of 42 months, it does not mean that "time" corresponds to "year"). Soon after, the reign of the Beast occurs, which according to Rev 13:5 is to last 42 months, and at that time, I believe, the "trampling" of the court/Jerusalem, the 42 months announced in the 6th trumpet, also occurs.

I've also read the explanation that John applied "days" to the people and "months" to the "beast" to somehow distinguish these time periods while connecting the two.

This is my take on the events surrounding the 7th trumpet and the 1260 days / 42 months issue. I do not convert time periods to "days to years" because there is no reason to.

43

Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze in

no mystery here.

they are all male jewish virgins, just like scripture says.

so, why all the muck and fuss?

PetrW

The twelve tribes of Revelation is also a very interesting topic! I explain the missing tribe of Dan by God creating the New Jerusalem. He's not making a Greater Jerusalem <=> Babylon => Greater Babylon.

There will be new tribes in the New Jerusalem. New does not mean immediately different. They will be different in their newness. If the old tribes came from four women, then the new tribes will be from the four sides of the world.

Their names are even more symbolic than the original ones, and at the same time the substitution of Dan for Joseph shows - in my opinion - a choice. What God prefers...that is the newness. It is not a condemnation of the past, but an emphasis on the new.

I take the 144,000 figure literally. But it's not that only the 144,000 reign with Christ. There will be more. In every age, sons and daughters of God have been born. In every age some harvest has come into the Lord's barn. As Noah was told, the sowing and reaping will never cease. It's just that sometimes the harvest is more, sometimes less. At the end of the ages there will be 144,000.

For the New Jerusalem is a huge city, not just for the 144,000 - the last harvest of this world.

P.S. Ephesus, the city, had a population of about 200,000 at the time of the writing of Revelation, so it must have been a wonder to the Christians of the time where so many Christians would come from all at once...

But even that number was supposed to be a sign that great changes would come with the coming of Christ.

So if I take it from the perspective of chronology, understanding the text of Revelation in its main fulfillment from chapter 4 onwards, as a continuous one, as a sequential one (with descriptive exceptions regarding the Beast or Babylon), then the gathering of Israel to the 144,000 is about half the time of the whole of Revelation. Then comes the second, the worse part.

From this perspective, I see the missing name or other than expected name as the same "problem" as, say, the identification of the Nicolaitans. They are described by their function as false apostles, not by their origin, the content of their doctrines, and the content of their controversy with the rest of the church. Those details are missing, but from the few (false apostles) one can infer a lot. As well as why the name Joseph and not Rachel is in the new Israel...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

The quotations of Zechariah and chapter 13 are often used. Personally, I find it incomprehensible. This kind of answer, I understand the same as when I ask: What is love? And the answer will be: God is love! And what is God? Well, love!

Formal correctness is achieved, and one cannot fault such a looping answer, except that the answer is an even greater mystery than the original question.

I have my opinion on 1/3 and the interpretation. It is not, as with 1/4 in the case of the (angelic) horsemen of Revelation 6, a literal 1/4 of the people who perish.

Like 1/3, it is not an arithmetic number, because if 1/3 of the earth is to be burned and all(!!!) the grass is burned (Rev 8:7), then Revelation need not continue from that verse, because life on earth would be destroyed... this verse is, in my opinion, also a "touchstone" for literal/symbolic interpretations, more precisely the boundaries or conditions under which one can speak of the literal or symbolic meaning of the text.

What is 1/3 and to whom does it apply? Answer later (tomorrow perhaps)✌️😎😁

125

Mandated Shunning is a Crime

by Lee Marsh in

mandated shunning is on the rise around the world with devastating effects on millions of people.

shunning that is mandated by organized groups to its members is a form of both physical and psychological violence against those people being shunned and cut off from their family and life-long relationships.

mandated shunning means that the shunning is ordered from the top down.

PetrW

@jhine

Here's how I think: Somewhere on this website there is a published case of an elder in the congregation who was convicted of pedophilia.

Suppose the elders in the congregation had actively intervened earlier to excommunicate this pedophile. But he would have defended himself - ironically - precisely on the basis of not being allowed contact with others. And he is, by virtue of the presumption of innocence, truly innocent until proven guilty. Human justice is just as imperfect and easily abused.

Jan, I'm not a lawyer. But what little I do know of the philosophy of law is that a law that denies something must have penalties. And someone has to review that. So excommunication would have to be reviewable by the courts, for example. But in terms of the economics of litigation, they may also decide to place higher demands on the elders in the congregation. They may make a demand for some additional training in the basics of law, psychology, sociology, history of religion or pedagogy...

Every such law extends the influence of the state into the religious life of its citizens. And when the state takes over, sooner or later it will become a "malheur".

And the state will then start persecuting "different-minded" people who refuse, for example, to promote homosexuality in a Christian congregation...

The result will be that people will actually lose interest in a religion, as any dispute will result in exhausting legal wrangling.

And then if we look at states that turn into totalitarian structures, then their efforts at total control of the citizens, actually ends in the death of the citizens...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

Okay, I guess we have a different interpretation. But to me it is obvious that the continuity of the seals and trumpets is provided by the text of Rev 8:1nn. Of course, that's not the only reason I think the events follow, but I'd like to hear your opinion, at least on this particular passage (Rev 8:1nn).

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

I also think Joseph's dream in Egypt really helps to resolve the chronology of Revelation. But I interpret the dream a little differently: the first 7 years, the fat years when they reaped such a great harvest that they stopped counting it afterwards, is the period between the 1st seal and the last 7th trumpet. The locust attack, i.e., the 1st woe, lasts 5 months, and I think that's an important timeline, that each event from the 1st seal to the 7th trumpet will last about half a year.

The 7th last trumpet, then, initiates the period of the last 7 years. A time of symbolic famine, misery and oppression. The reign of the Beast, the persecution of the saints, the destruction of Babylon the Great. And if those days had not been cut short...

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

I will try to simplify it even more to the most basic points:

- The last, 7th seal, also marks the opening of the 1st trumpet (Rev 8:1). Seals and trumpets, therefore, cannot be parallel time events. They are blocks of events that build upon each other.

- If the 6th trumpet announces that the Beast is to come up out of the abyss (Rev. 11:7), and we know that he is to reign for 42 months before going into destruction, then this also means that by the time the 6th bowl is poured out on the Beast's throne, the Beast must have already "come up" out of the sea and, by the same token, not yet gone into destruction. This again means that the bowls follow the trumpets.

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

@EasyPrompt

The plagues/trumpets/bowls of Revelation are all depicting those events at slightly different angles.

***

The subject of the chronology of Revelation is vast and many areas would need to be addressed. Therefore, just a brief comment on why I think the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, follow one another as they are described.

Two reasons: 1. the direct description that an event block is the last, which allows one to argue that something must (temporally) precede it, and 2. the internal references to the events, where the appearance of descriptions of the same characters (e.g. the appearance of the Beast) in two different time events, presupposes that the character in question, already exists.

On point 1.) In my view, this is due, first, to the fact that, e.g., in Rev 21:9, the plagues that took place within the 7 bowl block are identified as the last ones. This also corresponds exactly to the announcement in Rev 15:1.

On point 2.) The seals have ordinal numerals (except the first), but then the second, third, fourth...

In Rev. 6:12 the 6th seal is opened, and according to Rev. 7:1, within this 6th seal, 4 angels are commanded to "hold the 4 winds from the 4 corners of the earth" "until they seal (144000)" (Rev. 7:3). The sealing is still going on at the time of the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:1), where the locusts are told not to harm the people with the seal (Rev. 9:4). And according to Rev. 8:1, the 7th seal is opened in order, followed by the giving of the 7 trumpets, 7 angels (Rev. 8:2, 6). The angel with the trumpet is marked directly by a serial number: first, second, third...

And according to Rev 9:14, the angel with the 6th trumpet is directly told to release the 4 angels mentioned in the 6th seal (Rev 7:1). With the 6th trumpet, the sealing of the 144000 ends. But yet the 4th trumpet announces 3 woes that run concurrently from the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:12 - the first woe has passed, two more to come), within the 2nd woe or 6th trumpet, it is announced that out of the abyss, the Beast will ascend (Rev 11:7) and the second woe ends in Rev 11:14. So the 3rd woe lasts from the 7th trumpet onwards, with the appearance of the Beast and all the accompanying scenes, so that, for example, the 6th bowl (the block of the last 7 woes), is poured out on the throne of the Beast. Which is only possible if the Beast has already come out of the sea.

This is a small outline of how I understand the chronology of Revelation. It's based on a few assumptions, which I won't elaborate on here, but again, simply: I have a timeline and I write all the major events in there, and I do so by thinking that Revelation has two main parts: announcement and action. Above the timeline I write the announcement, below the timeline, then the action. Something is announced to the angels and the action only occurs some time later (either a verb in the future tense is used or just some internal reference to a subsequent/preceding event there).

In general, I would describe the chronology of Revelation as a linear, unidirectional chronology that will follow the main supporting timeline: the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls.

The digressions to the Beast and to Babylon the Great do not disturb this order.