In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

EasyPrompt

Still, you hold onto false teachings of the WTBTS which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.
As pointed out, the rest of the book of Revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal. The WTBTS currently says that this number is limited to those running the WTBTS and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.
By what reasoning (not from WTBTS origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of Revelation. Do they have to be JWs? Do they have to be Christians?

Okay, I'll take these one at a time...

"Still, you hold onto false teachings of the WTBTS which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs."

I was disfellowshipped for not worshipping the "chiefs", so I don't know where you got that from.

"As pointed out, the rest of the book of Revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal."

Parts of Revelation are figurative and parts are literal. The context and the holy spirit and the rest of the Bible make clear whether a phrase is figurative or literal. There was a literal number of priests/Levites in ancient Israel to substitute for the firstborn of all the tribes. They were counted. The Bible records those numbers.

In one part of Revelation, after talking about the literal 144,000, there are others spoken of, a group "no man was able to number" who also become Christians, as is clear in that they figuratively "wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb". The Bible shows there are two groups in context: one can be numbered, one cannot be numbered by man. In another part of Revelation, it says that the 144,000 come out of all faithful ones. Again, that is a numbered group coming out of a group that is not numbered by man. The context makes clear that 144,000 is a literal number.

The purpose of having kings/priests is to minister to others. It's to serve others. It's not to serve those who are unfaithful or less faithful. It's to serve those who are chosen by God to live forever. It's just an assignment, just like Levi's tribe was assigned to work in the tabernacle/temple, and it wasn't because he was more special (if anything, he was the biggest loser - seriously, he was violent and rude and took part in selling his brother Joseph. But eventually he was sorry about it. If God can forgive Levi, he can forgive anybody who's sorry.)

"The WTBTS currently says that this number is limited to those running the WTBTS and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill."

Well, then, why would you think that I agree with them on that? Obviously I don't agree with them on that.🙄If anyone is mentally diseased, it's them for making such a statement.

"By what reasoning (not from WTBTS origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of Revelation."

I never said I believed that only 144,000 people will be saved. I don't believe only 144,000 people will be saved. You make a lot of wrong assumptions. If you read some of the other comments I've made on different threads, you'll see that I believe what the Bible clearly shows - that all faithful ones will see and interact with both God and Christ on an individual basis, because nothing is impossible with God, and He is not limited by our imaginations (or by the imagination of the WTBT$😝).

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6534081228046336/revelation-stuff-request-petrw

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4797299037831168/sounding-trumpet?page=3

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/122739/luke-23-43-nwt?page=2#/5398189314670592

Joseph interpreted Pharoah's dreams because Joseph relied on holy spirit. Jehovah let Joseph understand that that seven cows meant seven years and the seven heads of wheat meant seven years. The years were literal and the wheat/cows were figurative. Jehovah let Daniel understand Nebuchadnezzar's dream, that the tree was figurative and the years were literal. Revelation is done in "dreams" or "visions". Some of the things are figurative and some are literal. It is only by means of God's holy spirit that we can understand them.

"Do they have to be JWs? Do they have to be Christians?"

Peter wasn't a JW was he? When he was "anointed", Peter was a Jew. (They weren't called "Christians" yet.) How about Cornelius? He wasn't even baptized when he was anointed with holy spirit.

Obviously, God can choose whoever He wants from wherever He wants. The Bible says He choses some from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. I believe what the Bible clearly teaches.
Anony Mous

Let’s take the text literal then, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. So they have to be Jews? If you say they are literal, you must then also follow Rev 7:14 which reveals the identity (KJV): These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, according to the scripture, if you take the number literally, only 144,000 will ‘survive’ a great tribulation. I know WTBTS completely ignores this part, because it undermines the entire premise that the 144,000 are selected before the ‘great tribulation’. It also undermines the whole premise that post-tribulation in the WTBTS version of paradise there will no longer be any sin since only the 144,000 have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.
You can’t simply claim secret knowledge by Holy Spirit, as the scripture point outs, anyone with discernment can learn these things, thus claiming Holy Spirit revealed it to you specifically is no better than the WTBTS FDS doing the same, especially given your interpretation is suspiciously close to their interpretation. You have to be intellectually honest with your arguments or they stop making sense. I’m not saying you can’t believe whatever you believe, I’m just asking for a reasonable, logical interpretation which is, as Jesus declared, plain to understand and intellectually consistent with the scripture.
Other numbers in Revelation that use the exact same phraseology in Greek are 2 million scorpion-tailed horse-man hybrids, given your interpretation, they must be a literal number too, yet, nobody ever reported those things to be literal.
Interestingly enough, the original Greek text uses the same word for number (literally translated: to count/number) in the verse with 666, where the writer basically says the name of the beast is to count 666.
So I’ve given you 3 numbers where the writer uses the same phraseology in scripture, to count 666, to count 144,000, to count 2,000,000 - most people except the WTBTS claim all to be figurative, especially given the warning by the writer of Revelation specifically says that the numbers in the text require discernment/interpretation.
The only reason the number (144,000) is used literal by the WTBTS and a few other minor sects is to make a ‘special group’ within a larger group or society. I didn’t say that was your intention, I’m saying that is the reason the WTBTS currently does it, hence my suspicious nature when someone clings to it without proper hermeneutical review of the scripture.
EasyPrompt

AnonyMous said: "Let’s take the text literal then, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. So they have to be Jews? If you say they are literal..."

I didn't say Revelation is all understood literally, @Anony Mous. Here is what I said...

EasyPrompt said: "Parts of Revelation are figurative and parts are literal. The context and the holy spirit and the rest of the Bible make clear whether a phrase is figurative or literal."

Here are some scriptures that explain who the "Jews" in Revelation are...

Romans 2:28,29

"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."

Paul was talking to Christians in Rome. He called them "Jews". They were figurative Jews, not literal Jews.

When talking to the Christians in Galatia, Paul said the following...

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." (Galatians 4:26)

Again, he was speaking figuratively. Jesus said God could raise up children of Abraham from the stones if He wanted to. Here is something else Jesus said to the apostles who would be among the first ones anointed for the specific purpose of being kings/priests in the kingdom...

Luke 22:28-30

"However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

Jesus is the one who gave the vision of Revelation to John. When Jesus was talking about "judging the 12 tribes of Israel" he was talking about figurative Israel. Figurative Israel is all who decide to "wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb".

The name "Israel" means "Contender With God". Those who become Christians need to keep contending for the blessing. All Christians are figurative "Israel" in context in Revelation 7:4...

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel..."

The 144,000 are a literal number of Christians, a representative sample of all Christians.
Kosonen

Hi Anony Mouse, I agree with EasyPromts' explanations here above, not because of the WT organization, but this is the result after I examined the matter independantly from people's opinions.
And conserning the statement in Revelation 7:4 that they come from every tribe of Israel. Revelation 7:5-8 reveal that it is not from the fleshly Israel, because it mentiones tribe of Joseph that never existed. And it omits the tribe of Efraim that existed. This discrepancy signals that Revelation 7:4 is not about Israel according to the flesh.
EasyPrompt

"most people"

"they stop making sense"

"proper hermeneutical review of the scripture"

@AnonyMous, I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm not looking for "followers". If something I share doesn't make sense to you, I feel bad for you, but that doesn't change the truth. I also don't care about Hermen and his nautical review, 😂😉😁whoever he is. I don't care what the WTBT$ publishes or doesn't publish. I care about truth and what God reveals by means of His holy spirit. Jesus said the truth would be withheld from those who approach the scriptures solely intellectually. He said he would reveal the truth of the scriptures to those who humble their heart and view God like a little child views a faithful, kind, loyal and trustworthy daddy. A little child asks their daddy for help when they don't understand something, and God, the Best Father, already told us He is willing to answer that request for understanding when we keep asking Him and don't give up.

"So, according to the scripture, if you take the number literally, only 144,000 will ‘survive’ a great tribulation."

That's not true. Here is what God's Word says...

Revelation 7:4,9,10

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel...After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.""

It says right there "a great crowd which no man was able to number" makes it through. If they were the same as the 144,000, then it wouldn't say "which no man was able to number". There are clearly two groups referred to in this passage: one has a number (144,000), one is unnumbered by man. It's not complicated.

"It also undermines the whole premise that post-tribulation in the WTBTS version of paradise there will no longer be any sin since only the 144,000 have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb."

What are you talking about? That there will still be sin during the 1000 year reign is made evident by Revelation 20:7-10, where it is clear some at that time sin against God badly enough to merit death. "Washing robes in the blood of the Lamb" is not a once and done thing. If a person chooses to follow Christ now, they have to keep following him.

Jude 5

"Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith."
Anony Mous

Yes, but by expounding on this one argument (again, using WTBTS argumentation) you’ve ignored the argument where I asked about the other numbers where the original texts use the same exact phrases In the original language.
As I said, you also have to explain, if that 1 number is literal, by what argumentation, if the entire text around it is not to taken literal do you say so. There is no indication in the entire book (not even the arbitrary chapter selection in the books) that 12 tribes of Israel having 12,000 people selected is any different than the then completed number. Simple math, keep your units: 12 (apples/figurative) x 12,000 (apples/figurative) = 144,000 (pears/literal?). This isn’t anything like the other scripture, the writer did not use different units like you claimed before (years and heads), the writer used the SAME units. He multiplies people with tribes, there is no 12x12,000 animals resulting in 144,000 people are saved, which would make your argument at least plausible.
Again:
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, where in the scripture do you get the division between literal figurative in what is basically the same sentence (it must be evident from the same text, not by personal revelation)
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, why does your seemingly arbitrary selection of literalism not apply to the other numbers (666 and 2M) that uses the exact same Greek phraseology, which literally translated means “number or to count”, later on in the same text. We know 666 was not literal, the text explicitly says so, yet the word for number used there is identical. The book of Revelation uses a ton of numbers, typically Greek fractions and whole numbers, for things the writer claims to literally see and do. He writes to a countable number 7 congregations (assuming this was literally written, since the early text does have 7 sections with specific exhortation for specific congregations), he ‘sees’ a countable 4 creatures, he sees a countable 4 horsemen, yet only in those 3 section does the writer remind us “to count/to number” as if to draw attention that the section with those numbers is some sort of special number (Kabbalah) and not a common/literal number. So why does John of Patmos tell us to count special and then why do you ignore his direction in this case only.
- without secret knowledge from WTBTS FDS, what application does this have before a great tribulation, since the text obviously indicates the selection of the number happens during or post a great tribulation, ostensibly from a larger group (the writer makes a split between those who survive and those who do not) which does not get to wash their robes in the blood of the lamb (they do not get to wash sin off, hence, by scriptural/Christian consistency, they never get saved - which is the phraseology I specifically used prior which was rejected in the first argument,without reference to text, they always will sin/die).
EasyPrompt

"You can’t simply claim secret knowledge by Holy Spirit, as the scripture point outs, anyone with discernment can learn these things, thus claiming Holy Spirit revealed it to you specifically is no better than the WTBTS FDS doing the same"

I never claimed to have "secret knowledge". Anyone can pray to God for holy spirit, and that He gives generously is no secret.

I am not ashamed of Jehovah God and His holy spirit, so I will continue to make the statement that it is only by means of His holy spirit that I can accurately understand anything in the scriptures. I will be very bold and say that it is only by means of holy spirit that anyone can understand anything in the Bible accurately. What you know accurately from the Bible is also because of holy spirit, not intellectualism. If you know that "God is Love" it's not because you are an intellectual. It's because you have experienced what love is and what it looks like and acts like, because you and others have been moved by holy spirit, the primary fruitage of which is love.

As I already mentioned, I don't care what the WTBT$/FD$ claims. Their claims make no difference to me. They think I'm a wicked apostate deserving of death. I think they make a lot of ridiculous claims. They can go jump in the lake for all I care. 😜🤣(That lake there looks like a nice place to swim anyway...)

"Other numbers in Revelation that use the exact same phraseology in Greek are 2 million scorpion-tailed horse-man hybrids, given your interpretation, they must be a literal number too, yet, nobody ever reported those things to be literal.
Interestingly enough, the original Greek text uses the same word for number (literally translated: to count/number) in the verse with 666, where the writer basically says the name of the beast is to count 666."

I already told you, it's not my "interpretation".

Genesis 40:8

"Do not interpretations belong to God?"

As regards Revelation chapter 9...

The "myriads of myriads" means "a lot".

The "locusts" are those of the nations who destroy religious institutions. The primary part of the attack on religious institutions will be a literal five months during the first part of the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

The cavalry in verses 16-19 are angels, which is made clear from the context in verses 14 and 15.

In Revelation 13:18 - The number "666" is figurative. It means trying to fix the world through systems of men rather than resting on God to fix it. It means looking for salvation through human institutions to the exclusion of God and the Kingdom of Christ that will be set up soon in heaven.

What else do ya got, @AnonyMous?😃This is fun!😁

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lo-3dakThM
PetrW

Anony Mous, I think you're thinking along the right lines. We may disagree on the implications, but I agree with you on your initial reasoning regarding the meaning of numbers in Revelation... 😎
If, Jesus says write to 7 congregations, then the number of letters is 7. It is not 8 or 6. In the same way, 7 angels have 7 trumpets and blow 7 times, not 6 times or 8 times.
I consider John*, the author of Revelation, this John is identical to the author of the Gospel. And it is in this Gospel that the writer's "penchant" for different numbers and precise timings is striking. John, for example, lists the 3 festivals of Passover, writes at what exact hour an event took place, counts prices, people, fish...
It's just a hint, it's more of a curiosity, but that interest in numbers, measurements, totals is also found in Revelation. John again is fond of measuring the New Jerusalem, calculating the length of the 1000 years, stating that something was first, and something was second, etc., etc.
So how is it - in my opinion - with the 144,000? Why not 143,999 or 144,001?
I think the number 144,000 is literal because the sum of 12x12,000 is literal. But, there is - in my opinion - a big BUT.
Because in order for any number of 144,000 to come into existence, then in the context of Revelation, the angels will seal those 144,000. This will occur when the Revelation takes place. The question becomes, what about the people who are living in the time before the sealing? JWs-theology addresses this with a sort of excuse that these people are counted in the 144,000 and that there is a sort of "remnant" in the ranks of the JWs. This would assume, of course, that Revelation and sealing is permanent and not from the 6th seal (and lasts until the 6th trumpet). This interpretation, is contrary to their interpretation of 1914... but the contradictions in JWs theology are not important.
How is it then? I think, and the sheer size of the New Jerusalem suggests it, that there will be millions upon millions of these co-rulers and priests with Christ, men and women. Each of those 20 centuries has "produced" plenty of "wheat", sometimes more, sometimes less. Never, as Noah was told, did the sowing and reaping cease. In a symbolic sense, I take it to mean just that in each period, some wheat was born.
In my opinion, then, by the time the last harvest of the last sons and daughters of God begins, then all have the same right and the same chance to be as "last" as the 144,000. And no one can take that right away from them. No theology, no organization. Only Jesus will choose.
I address the question of literal meaning by saying that, yes, it is a literal number, but if there has been no breaking of the 6th seal, then the heavenly government is offered to all who have "an ear to hear". The analogy, then, is with the great multitude at the time of Revelation: these are people who, though they did not know Christ accurately, acted mercifully towards other people. These are the ones who change (literally: 1/3 died after being attacked by 200 myriads of "horses") and show compassion, like the Samaritan. If Revelation were to take place at this time, then the Samaritan represents a merciful Muslim or a merciful Chinese Communist. I deliberately write it this way because I believe in the universality of salvation, which is really based on who is merciful or gentle, and not on the external attributes of "our/foreign"...
*there are various hypotheses as far back as the patristic era on the subject of authorship. The authenticity of God's word doesn't change that in my opinion - see the Letter to the Hebrews, where the author's name is not even directly mentioned.
stan livedeath

Is dinner ready yet ?
EasyPrompt

PetrW said: "then in the context of Revelation, the angels will seal those 144,000. This will occur when the Revelation takes place."

No. The composite visions of Revelation take place when Jesus is enthroned in heaven. (He wasn't enthroned in the first century and he wasn't enthroned in 1914.) As soon as he is enthroned in heaven, he begins riding the figurative "white horse". He executes God's judgment by (1) kicking Satan out of heaven, (2) permitting the UNs attack on religious institutions and (3) gathering the 144,000 at the end of the 3 1/2 year time period for the replacement of human governments by the Kingdom government.

The plagues/trumpets/bowls of Revelation are all depicting those events at slightly different angles.

The sealing of the 144,000 takes place before the plagues described in Revelation begin. This is apparent by what is written at Revelation 7:3 where the angels are directed to hold back the plagues until the 144,000 are all sealed:

"Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."

PetrW said: "If, Jesus says write to 7 congregations, then the number of letters is 7. It is not 8 or 6. In the same way, 7 angels have 7 trumpets and blow 7 times, not 6 times or 8 times."

The congregations are not literally "7". Jesus is sending the message to all the congregations and denominations that claim to represent him. The messages to the congregations are telling them that he is coming soon and they need to wake up. Most of them are teaching false doctrine or being naughty in some way ("Balaam", "Jezebel", "sect of Nicolaus", "idolatry", "immorality", etc) although he makes clear there are many faithful individuals.

The 7 trumpets are not literal, neither are the 7 bowls or 7 plagues. They are all different depictions of the complete judgment of God. There will not be seven different trumpet blasts or seven different plagues. They are taken all together to depict what will happen during the 3 1/2 years of the tribulation ahead.

Jesus has not cast the Devil down yet. When Jesus takes the throne in heaven, then he will cast the Devil down and the things written about figuratively in Revelation as regards God's judgment will have begun.

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

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